SAC-CA-GTI

a roll bar" issue. But I'm SICK of the lap belt only crap. So I was thinking of Stable Energies bar and Deist 3" belts. I'd like to get these with my X-mas bonus for the Thunderhill and Laguna track events. Thank you all. And yes eventually I'd like to get a roll bar w/ harness bar but that may have to wait till late next year.

NASA racer

and theoretically will get crushed if the roof collapses.

Arguments against include:

a) cases of drivers "moving out of the way" in 3 point seatbelts as roofs crush are virtually unknown so the risk appears about the same either way (without a roll bar or cage that is).

b) many people believe the roofs of cars are sufficiently strong that it's not that big of a risk even if you do flip and that's true to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual vehicle.

I've personally seen non-caged cars on their roofs perfectly fine and caged cars on their roofs where the driver would have been crushed without the cage...for example:
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nasa+racer/nasas+stuff/mikes+civic+smooshed.jpg">

Ultimately, IMHO it's all a risk and a sort of crap shoot and if you don't do anything to protect yourself, you may never get injured...if you take every precaution you may be killed BUT IMHO, it's most sensible to take EVERY precaution and consider the worst-possible case and try and protect yourself against that as much as possible given the supply of high-quality safety devices available today.

JoeyJoJoeJrShabadoo

I think 4 point harnesses in an Audi are fine, but since that's a big can of worms I'll try to stay clear of the arguement - *but* - make sure the lap-belt portion is snug and low. My instructor at Laguna had an RS6 w/ Schroth 4 points, and I was not comfortable with how high they rode - basically up in my stomach! :-o

I tried plenty of adjustments, then decided not to ride with him anymore.

Oh, and moderators - nhautolink.com and associated sponsored links can go suck a big one.

Krisko

Look into the Schroth Rallye 4 'quick fit' belts for your A4. It's a 4pt belt that snaps into the rear and front belt receptacles. They're available as an option in Germany (you can get your audi/bmw with them from the dealer) so I have to believe they are pretty safe in event of a rollover.

I used them in my Audi before I sold it and my BMW before I converted it to full race car status. I always felt in control...the only time I felt better on track was with a race seat and a full harness.

Phil type 951

as others have mentioned the risk of being held in place during a crash with a 4pt harness is real but what about the risk of smashing your head on a roll bar/cage in a minor wreck on the street. are you going to wear a helmet every time you get in the caged s4? I feel better about a 4pt harness in a street car on the track then I do about a street car with a cage.

if you do a couple track events now and agian you should feel fine about using a harness. the chances that you wreck let alone fip is very small and Ive never heard of a carat a track event hitting so hard that the roof gets smashed in.


if you want protection you need a fully caged racecar with fire protection suite, hans and what ever else the car class requres for racing.

the harness bar is a good thing but does nothing for you cage argument. the ralle 4 street/track harness is made for street cars and they will fit right if adjusted properly. your instructor likly did not take the time to make sure it was adjusted properly for you. those harnesses have some slack built in protect you against a number of effects during a wreck.

I'm not saying the 4pt harness is safer then the stock belt but I dont think, and many people agree, thats its not worse then the stock
belt. a proper install including a harness bar also helps but a proper adjustment of the lap belt IS KEY. if it is not properly adjusted you are in trouble no matter what. my 2 cents

Imolavirus@BuehnEngineering

i use them in the S4 and haven't had any complaints yet

David White

"but what about the risk of smashing your head on a roll bar/cage in a minor wreck on the street. are you going to wear a helmet every time you get in the caged s4? I feel better about a 4pt harness in a street car on the track then I do about a street car with a cage. "

-theres a big difference between roll bars and full cages (which the orig. poster only mentions roll bars)...having a full cage in a street driven car is a bad idea unless (like you mentioned) you are going to wear a helmet all the time....

-most 4pt roll bars are far enough behind the drivers head that there is not too much of a chance of hitting your head on it (yes, theres always a chance that it could happen)...also, you can get bolt in bars that could be removed between DE's...

"if you do a couple track events now and agian you should feel fine about using a harness. the chances that you wreck let alone fip is very small and Ive never heard of a carat a track event hitting so hard that the roof gets smashed in. "

-i'm not a big fan of telling people what they "should feel fine about using", thats all i'll say about that...just because the chance of something happening is very small or you've never heard of it happening, that doesnt mean it can't/won't happen...i've heard/seen evidence of it happening several times before...

-the following pics are from a recent DE out west...would you have felt safe harnessed in to that car?
<img src="http://members.***.net/trackevents/Images/Corvette/C6roof1.jpg">
<img src="http://members.***.net/trackevents/Images/Corvette/C6roof2.jpg">

"if you want protection you need a fully caged racecar with fire protection suite, hans and what ever else the car class requres for racing. "

-while i recommend people take advantage of every safety device they can, in a DE environment, a "fully caged racecar" isnt absolutely necessary...in the original post, i saw no mention of racing...

"the harness bar is a good thing but does nothing for you cage argument. the ralle 4 street/track harness is made for street cars and they will fit right if adjusted properly. your instructor likly did not take the time to make sure it was adjusted properly for you. those harnesses have some slack built in protect you against a number of effects during a wreck."

-i must have missed his "cage argument"...he is asking about harnesses with/without a roll bar which i would reccomend either using stock belts or using 5/6 pt harnesses with rollover protection...

"I'm not saying the 4pt harness is safer then the stock belt but I dont think, and many people agree, thats its not worse then the stock
belt. a proper install including a harness bar also helps but a proper adjustment of the lap belt IS KEY. if it is not properly adjusted you are in trouble no matter what. my 2 cents"

-proper installation/use is key for ANY safety device...

David White

are you talking about a harness bar and 5/6pt harnesses?

i recommend either staying with your stock 3 pt belts (yes, i know it sucks) or going with a 4pt roll bar and harnesses....the chances of rolling over in a DE are small but they are real...in a rollover, 5/6 pt harnesses are going to hold you upright and if you dont have any rollover protection, your head could become the highest point in your car...

are there "off the shelf" bolt in bars for a4/s4's? if not, you could get a custom one made that you can still remove when you need to...

as far as the 4pt setups go, i dont know too much about them so i won't comment...

i guess i'm just old school and think that you shouldnt uses harnesses without rollover protection...

eph94

All you had to do was move the seat backward and that would have given you more shoulder belt to allow the lap belt to fit low and snug on your hips. I uses the Schroth harnesses and they fit tighter and lower than the stock belts in both the RS6 and our MINI.

The videos I've seen of Schroth quickfit harnesses versus stock 3-pt in frontal collisions suggest that in these non-rollover crashes the Schroth harnesses are much safer. FWIW.

I'm not taking a side either way. I think I could easily do HPDE without them too.

JoeyJoJoeJrShabadoo

I'm normally an advocate of 4 pointers, just didn't feel comfortable this time around...