Please tell me why or why not! I know the whole "harnesses are pointless w/out
12-08-2005, 05:19 PM
#14
yes that is fine, I see where they are coming from but
there are lots of diffrent risks involved and I'm sure we could all find pics of crazy things that have happend to cars on the track.
I should not tell him what is ok to do, you are right about that. I just wanted to say that there are risks of installing a cage in a street car and I'm personaly worried about the safty of some of the cages and how they are installed in some cars I've seen. there are a lot of issues one must think about when it comes to tracking a car and a bolt in cage might bring about a new set of risks. at non racing track events about 70% of the cars have have 4-5-6pt harness installed and not many have a cage. this doesnt make it right but he should not feel forced to turn his lovely s4 into a race car, loose his back seats or whatever, just because he is looking for a little added stability in the seat when he does a couple events. if he is getting really serious perhaps he should think about a track car. hard to say for sure what the best way to go is and it sure isnt the same for everyone.
I should not tell him what is ok to do, you are right about that. I just wanted to say that there are risks of installing a cage in a street car and I'm personaly worried about the safty of some of the cages and how they are installed in some cars I've seen. there are a lot of issues one must think about when it comes to tracking a car and a bolt in cage might bring about a new set of risks. at non racing track events about 70% of the cars have have 4-5-6pt harness installed and not many have a cage. this doesnt make it right but he should not feel forced to turn his lovely s4 into a race car, loose his back seats or whatever, just because he is looking for a little added stability in the seat when he does a couple events. if he is getting really serious perhaps he should think about a track car. hard to say for sure what the best way to go is and it sure isnt the same for everyone.
12-08-2005, 07:22 PM
#15
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the original poster never mentioned a full cage...
..there is big difference between a 4pt roll bar and a full cage...no offense intended, but it seems like you are confusing roll bars and roll cages as well as 4 pt harnesses (like the schroth clip ins) and 5-6pt harnesses (with sub-straps)...there are some major differences in how each system works...
"at non racing track events about 70% of the cars have have 4-5-6pt harness installed and not many have a cage."
-most of the groups that put on DE's in my area (the southeast) require a roll bar (again, not a cage) with the use of 5/6 pt harnesses...most of them will allow the schroth 4 pt harnesses without rollover protection
" this doesnt make it right but he should not feel forced to turn his lovely s4 into a race car, loose his back seats or whatever, just because he is looking for a little added stability in the seat when he does a couple events."
-i absolutely agree, a dedicated track car is the best option but its not always feasible...like i said in my other post though, you can put in 4pt bars that arent nearly as intrusive as full cages and in many cases can be removed when not needed...
"at non racing track events about 70% of the cars have have 4-5-6pt harness installed and not many have a cage."
-most of the groups that put on DE's in my area (the southeast) require a roll bar (again, not a cage) with the use of 5/6 pt harnesses...most of them will allow the schroth 4 pt harnesses without rollover protection
" this doesnt make it right but he should not feel forced to turn his lovely s4 into a race car, loose his back seats or whatever, just because he is looking for a little added stability in the seat when he does a couple events."
-i absolutely agree, a dedicated track car is the best option but its not always feasible...like i said in my other post though, you can put in 4pt bars that arent nearly as intrusive as full cages and in many cases can be removed when not needed...
12-08-2005, 08:54 PM
#16
right, the poster didnt mention a full cage, I did.
Thanks, but I'm clear on the differences between the 4pt vs. 5pt-6pt harness and a roll bar vs a full cage. Personally I would not install a cage or bar unless it is built by a professional cage builder I can see/meet/talk to and look at race cars he's built the cages for. I don't trust a big metal structure in the car that doesn't have any of design regulations or tolerances based on real word crash testing. I think people are crazy to think these basic 4pt or 6pt bars are going to protect them.
The Vette pic you posted obviously had a tremendous amount of force to crush the roof like that. What happened to the driver? Ws he ok? What would happen in a crash with that much force on a side impact? D you think a little roll bar hoop would protect the driver as he hit a tree sideways at 50-60mph? How do you know a simple bolt in cage would not collapse on top of him? I've seen people walk away from brutal wrecks in a solid car and had there been a big metal bar inside the occupants would probably be dead.
Have you seen how these bars are usually attached? With small bolts from Home Depo and to me it's a joke. At a minimum they should be welded in place and bolted to the frame. It won't take much force from a side impact to shear these bolts off. Then the driver is left with loose bars flailing around inside the car. IT wasn't designed to be there by the Audi engineers and I have no idea what it might to how the car is designed to take an impact.
The Schroth pt4 harness has what they call ASM or Anti SubMarine, a feature designed to offer a small amount of instant belt slack in the event of a wreck. Its not a replacement for an sub belt and its not for a racing environment but it offers some protection. As always a proper instillation is the most important thing when it comes to a safety device. See the link I posted, I'm sure you will hate it.
I've done events with lots of different groups and I've never heard of that rule but it sounds like a good rule. With a 3'belt 6pt cam lock and race seats you are going anywhere. I don't think the same is true with a little 2' 4pt. I just don't see how a removable roll bar is going to protect you. The front of the roof isn't even protected so what protects you against the front part folding down on your head?<ul><li><a href="http://www.lockracewrks.com/Products/Safety%20Equipment/Schroth%20Competition/Schroth%20Tech/body_schroth%20tech.html">http://www.lockracewrks.com/Products/Safety%20Equipment/Schroth%20Competition/Schroth%20Tech/body_schroth%20tech.h
The Vette pic you posted obviously had a tremendous amount of force to crush the roof like that. What happened to the driver? Ws he ok? What would happen in a crash with that much force on a side impact? D you think a little roll bar hoop would protect the driver as he hit a tree sideways at 50-60mph? How do you know a simple bolt in cage would not collapse on top of him? I've seen people walk away from brutal wrecks in a solid car and had there been a big metal bar inside the occupants would probably be dead.
Have you seen how these bars are usually attached? With small bolts from Home Depo and to me it's a joke. At a minimum they should be welded in place and bolted to the frame. It won't take much force from a side impact to shear these bolts off. Then the driver is left with loose bars flailing around inside the car. IT wasn't designed to be there by the Audi engineers and I have no idea what it might to how the car is designed to take an impact.
The Schroth pt4 harness has what they call ASM or Anti SubMarine, a feature designed to offer a small amount of instant belt slack in the event of a wreck. Its not a replacement for an sub belt and its not for a racing environment but it offers some protection. As always a proper instillation is the most important thing when it comes to a safety device. See the link I posted, I'm sure you will hate it.
I've done events with lots of different groups and I've never heard of that rule but it sounds like a good rule. With a 3'belt 6pt cam lock and race seats you are going anywhere. I don't think the same is true with a little 2' 4pt. I just don't see how a removable roll bar is going to protect you. The front of the roof isn't even protected so what protects you against the front part folding down on your head?<ul><li><a href="http://www.lockracewrks.com/Products/Safety%20Equipment/Schroth%20Competition/Schroth%20Tech/body_schroth%20tech.html">http://www.lockracewrks.com/Products/Safety%20Equipment/Schroth%20Competition/Schroth%20Tech/body_schroth%20tech.h
12-09-2005, 07:23 AM
#17
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Re: right, the poster didnt mention a full cage, I did.
" I don't trust a big metal structure in the car that doesn't have any of design regulations or tolerances based on real word crash testing. I think people are crazy to think these basic 4pt or 6pt bars are going to protect them."
-you really don't think "basic" 4pt bars or 6pt cages will provide any additional protection? you think you are better off in a rollover without a "basic" 4 pt rollbar? 4pt rollbars are all pretty basic (wether they are bolt in or custom made weld-in) and they do provide some protection in a rollover, thats it, thats all they are designed for...in amateur racing and DE's (as well as a lot of pro-racing), good luck finding cages that use "design regulations or tolerances based on real word crash testing"...cages are built to the series/class rules and you might be surprised to find that usually those cheap bolt-cages (which i would never race with) are actually allowed...
"The Vette pic you posted obviously had a tremendous amount of force to crush the roof like that. What happened to the driver? Ws he ok?" - i'm pretty sure he was ok, i'll have to check
"What would happen in a crash with that much force on a side impact? D you think a little roll bar hoop would protect the driver as he hit a tree sideways at 50-60mph?" - huh? roll bars arent designed to provide any side impact protection so why would they protect the driver in that situation?
"How do you know a simple bolt in cage would not collapse on top of him?" -you never really know for sure if any cage/bar is going to hold up until you are in a crash/rollover...i dont like bolt in cages but they will provide more rollover protection than not having anything...
"I've seen people walk away from brutal wrecks in a solid car and had there been a big metal bar inside the occupants would probably be dead. "-people walk away from "brutal" crashes everyday on the street....are you saying that roll bars/cages make cars less safe when all safety systems are being properly used...harnesses, helmets, etc?
"I just don't see how a removable roll bar is going to protect you. The front of the roof isn't even protected so what protects you against the front part folding down on your head?"
-it will provide rollover protection...imagine an upside down car, take that yellow vette for example, the whole roof structure was flattened...now imagine if it had a rollbar and that part of the roof (near the occupants head) had not collapsed...it doesnt really matter if the windshield had not held up, imagine the line between the roll bar and the front of the car, you are much better off with that protection...consider formula cars and most sports racers, ever see any roll over protection in front of the driver? of course a full cage will be better than just a roll bar, but a roll bar will provide rollover protection...
-the original discussion was about harnesses with or without a roll bar, so i'm not sure why you keep bringing up roll cages and now side impacts..
-you really don't think "basic" 4pt bars or 6pt cages will provide any additional protection? you think you are better off in a rollover without a "basic" 4 pt rollbar? 4pt rollbars are all pretty basic (wether they are bolt in or custom made weld-in) and they do provide some protection in a rollover, thats it, thats all they are designed for...in amateur racing and DE's (as well as a lot of pro-racing), good luck finding cages that use "design regulations or tolerances based on real word crash testing"...cages are built to the series/class rules and you might be surprised to find that usually those cheap bolt-cages (which i would never race with) are actually allowed...
"The Vette pic you posted obviously had a tremendous amount of force to crush the roof like that. What happened to the driver? Ws he ok?" - i'm pretty sure he was ok, i'll have to check
"What would happen in a crash with that much force on a side impact? D you think a little roll bar hoop would protect the driver as he hit a tree sideways at 50-60mph?" - huh? roll bars arent designed to provide any side impact protection so why would they protect the driver in that situation?
"How do you know a simple bolt in cage would not collapse on top of him?" -you never really know for sure if any cage/bar is going to hold up until you are in a crash/rollover...i dont like bolt in cages but they will provide more rollover protection than not having anything...
"I've seen people walk away from brutal wrecks in a solid car and had there been a big metal bar inside the occupants would probably be dead. "-people walk away from "brutal" crashes everyday on the street....are you saying that roll bars/cages make cars less safe when all safety systems are being properly used...harnesses, helmets, etc?
"I just don't see how a removable roll bar is going to protect you. The front of the roof isn't even protected so what protects you against the front part folding down on your head?"
-it will provide rollover protection...imagine an upside down car, take that yellow vette for example, the whole roof structure was flattened...now imagine if it had a rollbar and that part of the roof (near the occupants head) had not collapsed...it doesnt really matter if the windshield had not held up, imagine the line between the roll bar and the front of the car, you are much better off with that protection...consider formula cars and most sports racers, ever see any roll over protection in front of the driver? of course a full cage will be better than just a roll bar, but a roll bar will provide rollover protection...
-the original discussion was about harnesses with or without a roll bar, so i'm not sure why you keep bringing up roll cages and now side impacts..
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