is there someone on here who the ability to source RS2 trannys?
03-26-2005, 06:23 PM
#13
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VW putting out a 2.5 l 5 cyl in the jetta next yr, how long till turbo
Especially since the 5 cyl T was the highest output engine Audi ever built. I bet in 2 yrs, you will see some turbo apps. All the parts are avail if they retain the 20v head spacing, a lot is known abt this engine config.
Rod
Rod
03-29-2005, 05:50 AM
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from what Dahlback says, their RS2 tranny is capable of over 700hp
and i've heard rumors that the only thing different about the Rs4 tranny is the gear ratio and the fact that it's got input/outputs for an oil cooler.
03-30-2005, 01:52 AM
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I don't think there is any real strength difference between the RS2, S4, or RS4 transmissions...
01E TransmissionVariations and 6 Speed Discussion
================================================== ===============
DISCUSSION ON 1ST GEAR VARIATIONS, AND 6 SPEEDS IN GENERAL:
================================================== ===============
Q. What are the variations on 1st gear in the 01E transmission?
A. There are four different 1st gear (mainshaft) part numbers. Basically, there was the original type 1st (mainshaft part # 01E 311 105 G), the flexible 1st ( ... 105 E), the wide 1st ( ... 105 J), and the wide & flexible 1st ( ... 105H). The 105G was the 1st gear originally used in the lower HP cars, which included all of the '92 - '95 US and Canada cars with a 5 speed, and European 6 speed cars with AAN engines during the same period. During this early period, the V8 cars and the S2's had a flexible mainshaft for 1st gear, this is the 105E. The higher horepower cars like the RS2 had yet a different mainshaft, with a wider gear for 1st that was also flexible, this is the 105H. This migrated into the V8 cars somewhere in 1995. A wide 1st mainshaft (105J) also migrated into all of the other 6 speed cars, somewhere around late 1995 or early 1996.
Q. Why should I buy a used six speed when I can buy a new one from Blau?
A. Jim Blau tells me on 8/09/02 that he hopes to have more transmissions in stock 6 to 8 weeks from now. These transmissions should be new units, and should be code DSY. This is a later S4tt gearbox, and like other V6tt 6 speeds, it has a wide 1st - 105J mainshaft. His new 6 speeds are priced at $3495 plus shipping.
Q. What's this talk about the wider first gear?
A. There is a problem with the early 01E series of transmissions. First gear is not wide enough for the loads that a turbo can produce under some situations. This has happened in both chipped and non-chipped cars. Audi made the RS2 transmission with a wider first gear to handle the increased torque. This change then made it into the S2 in late 1994 and finally into the S6 in June of 1995. If your S6 was a June '95 build date or later, you should check your transmission serial number to see if it is "CBD 79445" or above. If so, you have the wider first gear. One lister has destroyed first gear in three transmissions. He says he has a list of other s-listers who have the same problem. The author of this web page, Charlie Smith, personally experienced the problem. There is a description of the symptoms of the problem just below in this web page.
Q. How come the earlier Turbo Quattros with the 016 quattro transmission, in the 86 - 91 period, didn't have this problem. Isn't the 01E transmission supposed to be stronger?
A. There is a thought that this problem is related to the center Torsen differential, combined with inadequate 1st gear tooth surface strength. The thinking goes something like this ... as you break a front wheel loose under hard acceleration the Torsen differential locks and unlocks, causing a heavy shock load on the transmission. In 1st gear this shock loading puts very heavy pressure on the gear tooth surfaces, causing failure of the teeth.
What really happens is the surface of (probably) one tooth on 1st gear on the mainshaft becomes galled. If you have ever seen the inner race of a ball bearing that's failed - with very heavy pitting, that's what the failed first gear tooth looks like.
Note from Charlie Smith: A photo of the failed 1st gear teeth is at the bottom of this web page.
Another note: The above is only a theory - I'm told the UrQ got the Torsen worldwide in about '88 in the 016 transmission. So obviously the torsen center differential isn't the whole story.
Q. Do the S2 transmissions have the wider first gear?
A. Only the late model S2 transmissions, after serial number CGR 77644
Q. What the difference between the RS2 and the S2 transmissions?
A. Provided we're talking about the late model S2 versus the RS2, nothing except the code stamped on the outside. The RS2 transmission is code CRB and the S2 is code CGR. So if you use an S2, you lose bragging rights, but you're probably going to get a better price...
Q. Why don't I just get the parts directly from Europe or from Hoppen and rebuild my five speed into a six speed?
A. The center housing of the transmission is a different part for the wider first gear. Provided you were willing to give up the wider first gear, the best parts price anybody has gotten is $1900 (Steve Mills) and $3500 (Hoppen distributor). Most rebuilds reported on the s-list have cost at least $800 in labor (German Transaxle). Your car will have downtime, and you can't sell your old five speed on e-bay :-)
These prices are just for the 6 speed conversion parts. The parts to do a conversion to a wider 1st gear are probably another $1500 - $2000, and that's if you locally machine your center housing for clearance. I'm not sure it's feasible to machine this part, I'll update this information after some investigations.
Q. How do I know an RS2 or S2 transmission will fit and work correctly?
A. Several people have done the conversion and installed an RS2 or S2 transmission into a UrS4/S6.
Q. What about the new S4tt 6-speed transmissions?
A. This may be a good way to get a 6 speed, if you can find one at a decent price. These have shown up on eBay under $2000. This gearbox is going to have slightly longer ratio 5th and 6th gears. ( see notes on fitting S4tt DSY into UrS4/S6 )
Q. What's the final drive ratio of the S4tt? Is it the same as the rear differential on the UrS4/S6?
A. Yes. The final drive ratio is 9:37 which is 4.11
Q. Why can't I just buy a new S4tt 6-speed transmission from Audi? With estimates of $4500 to repair a transmission with a failed 1st gear, wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy a new one?
A. Per Carlsen Audi, the *dealer* cost on a complete new 6 speed S4tt transmission is $8300. Otherwise, it was an interesting idea.
Q. What about a 6 speed 01E from an AllRoad? Will it fit and can I interchange some of the lower gear ratios?
A. The final drive ratio is different, it's 8:35 which is 4.375 - this will not work with your current rear differential ratio. I think you could interchange the lower gears in pairs ... because of gears made as part of common shafts, you would have to change 1 & 2 together, or would have to change 3 & 4 together.
================================================== ===============
DISCUSSION ON 1ST GEAR VARIATIONS, AND 6 SPEEDS IN GENERAL:
================================================== ===============
Q. What are the variations on 1st gear in the 01E transmission?
A. There are four different 1st gear (mainshaft) part numbers. Basically, there was the original type 1st (mainshaft part # 01E 311 105 G), the flexible 1st ( ... 105 E), the wide 1st ( ... 105 J), and the wide & flexible 1st ( ... 105H). The 105G was the 1st gear originally used in the lower HP cars, which included all of the '92 - '95 US and Canada cars with a 5 speed, and European 6 speed cars with AAN engines during the same period. During this early period, the V8 cars and the S2's had a flexible mainshaft for 1st gear, this is the 105E. The higher horepower cars like the RS2 had yet a different mainshaft, with a wider gear for 1st that was also flexible, this is the 105H. This migrated into the V8 cars somewhere in 1995. A wide 1st mainshaft (105J) also migrated into all of the other 6 speed cars, somewhere around late 1995 or early 1996.
Q. Why should I buy a used six speed when I can buy a new one from Blau?
A. Jim Blau tells me on 8/09/02 that he hopes to have more transmissions in stock 6 to 8 weeks from now. These transmissions should be new units, and should be code DSY. This is a later S4tt gearbox, and like other V6tt 6 speeds, it has a wide 1st - 105J mainshaft. His new 6 speeds are priced at $3495 plus shipping.
Q. What's this talk about the wider first gear?
A. There is a problem with the early 01E series of transmissions. First gear is not wide enough for the loads that a turbo can produce under some situations. This has happened in both chipped and non-chipped cars. Audi made the RS2 transmission with a wider first gear to handle the increased torque. This change then made it into the S2 in late 1994 and finally into the S6 in June of 1995. If your S6 was a June '95 build date or later, you should check your transmission serial number to see if it is "CBD 79445" or above. If so, you have the wider first gear. One lister has destroyed first gear in three transmissions. He says he has a list of other s-listers who have the same problem. The author of this web page, Charlie Smith, personally experienced the problem. There is a description of the symptoms of the problem just below in this web page.
Q. How come the earlier Turbo Quattros with the 016 quattro transmission, in the 86 - 91 period, didn't have this problem. Isn't the 01E transmission supposed to be stronger?
A. There is a thought that this problem is related to the center Torsen differential, combined with inadequate 1st gear tooth surface strength. The thinking goes something like this ... as you break a front wheel loose under hard acceleration the Torsen differential locks and unlocks, causing a heavy shock load on the transmission. In 1st gear this shock loading puts very heavy pressure on the gear tooth surfaces, causing failure of the teeth.
What really happens is the surface of (probably) one tooth on 1st gear on the mainshaft becomes galled. If you have ever seen the inner race of a ball bearing that's failed - with very heavy pitting, that's what the failed first gear tooth looks like.
Note from Charlie Smith: A photo of the failed 1st gear teeth is at the bottom of this web page.
Another note: The above is only a theory - I'm told the UrQ got the Torsen worldwide in about '88 in the 016 transmission. So obviously the torsen center differential isn't the whole story.
Q. Do the S2 transmissions have the wider first gear?
A. Only the late model S2 transmissions, after serial number CGR 77644
Q. What the difference between the RS2 and the S2 transmissions?
A. Provided we're talking about the late model S2 versus the RS2, nothing except the code stamped on the outside. The RS2 transmission is code CRB and the S2 is code CGR. So if you use an S2, you lose bragging rights, but you're probably going to get a better price...
Q. Why don't I just get the parts directly from Europe or from Hoppen and rebuild my five speed into a six speed?
A. The center housing of the transmission is a different part for the wider first gear. Provided you were willing to give up the wider first gear, the best parts price anybody has gotten is $1900 (Steve Mills) and $3500 (Hoppen distributor). Most rebuilds reported on the s-list have cost at least $800 in labor (German Transaxle). Your car will have downtime, and you can't sell your old five speed on e-bay :-)
These prices are just for the 6 speed conversion parts. The parts to do a conversion to a wider 1st gear are probably another $1500 - $2000, and that's if you locally machine your center housing for clearance. I'm not sure it's feasible to machine this part, I'll update this information after some investigations.
Q. How do I know an RS2 or S2 transmission will fit and work correctly?
A. Several people have done the conversion and installed an RS2 or S2 transmission into a UrS4/S6.
Q. What about the new S4tt 6-speed transmissions?
A. This may be a good way to get a 6 speed, if you can find one at a decent price. These have shown up on eBay under $2000. This gearbox is going to have slightly longer ratio 5th and 6th gears. ( see notes on fitting S4tt DSY into UrS4/S6 )
Q. What's the final drive ratio of the S4tt? Is it the same as the rear differential on the UrS4/S6?
A. Yes. The final drive ratio is 9:37 which is 4.11
Q. Why can't I just buy a new S4tt 6-speed transmission from Audi? With estimates of $4500 to repair a transmission with a failed 1st gear, wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy a new one?
A. Per Carlsen Audi, the *dealer* cost on a complete new 6 speed S4tt transmission is $8300. Otherwise, it was an interesting idea.
Q. What about a 6 speed 01E from an AllRoad? Will it fit and can I interchange some of the lower gear ratios?
A. The final drive ratio is different, it's 8:35 which is 4.375 - this will not work with your current rear differential ratio. I think you could interchange the lower gears in pairs ... because of gears made as part of common shafts, you would have to change 1 & 2 together, or would have to change 3 & 4 together.
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