Rocky-in-Connecticut

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Quattrings

They need to continue building cars in dedicated plants and distance themselves from VW especially when it comes to where they are manufactured. Audi has worked hard to drop a lingering stigma of the late 80s and now that they are making headway, it amazes me they would even consider that. VWs quality problems span from the early 90s up to almost now and I believe VW is Audis achilles heal in the U.S.

tomh009

And the decisions really haven't been made yet. Audi is still talking about opening their own (separate) factory in the US.

audi_dtw

If it wasn't for VW there would be no Audi in the first place. Most people dont even know where their car comes from anyways. Whats it matter where its put together. What about all the parts on your car that have vw/audi stamped on them, since they are on a audi they are better. I care to bet a lot of the parts on your S5 are also on the passat. Mostly internal obviously externals would be unique to each platform.

As for quality each one has issues just cause you pay over sixty grand for a car does not make it better quality. It may have better quality parts installed but build is the same. They are one company and always will be.

Quattrings

The fact is Audi survives on it's own and is profitable. VW is not profitable. Audi was formed in 1932 and has traces back further to 1885. VW didn't even purchase a major financial stake in Audi until 1966.

I do agree that most people don't know where their car comes from anyway as far as where location of where it's built but they do associate VW as unreliable in the U.S. In the past, few people knew of "Audi" at all and many that did, lumped it together with VW. That was the extent of their knowledge. "Audi was a "VW"

To go deeper, the representative at the Audi Factory tour in Ingolstadt mentioned that Audi gets all of the latest factory tooling and software. When they are replaced, the old tooling is passed to VW for it's factories while Audi upgrades.

True that some of the parts suppliers conveniently stamp many parts with both companies' logos (more so in the past than they do now). But it doesn't mean that the parts are necessarily interchangable between the two makes. For example, I recently noticed the logo on a wheel cap that I can guarantee will never be on a Passat. On the other hand, I almost have to search for a part to have both logos on them now. Everything from the exhaust (that used to have VW/Audi on my B6 A4) to underhood parts, to window glass, now have only Audi markings.

As for quality, If you have read JD Powers, or Consumer Reports reviews in the last 5+ years you might think differently. VW is consistently in the bottom portion of the reviews while Audi is performing near the top of all European brands. I've had VWs before, as have members of my family. The only VW I will recommend to my friends in the US is the Passat. I've had coworkers that considered a new Jetta or GTI and I couldn't recommend them. They are safe cars, and well engineered, but I'm not convinced that VW has made the changes necessary for me to make a personal recommendation that they should purchase one based on being a trouble-free car, not to mention the absolutely poor dealership experiences that they will have. Many people that I know that were die-hard VW owners grew tired of dealing with constant issues on their Jettas, etc. and have not returned. I have lived the experience, on both ends (as have many people that I know) and Audi definitely takes quality and reliability a step further than VW and it's realized in the ownership experience.

There's a reason that Audi has been making a major push for Audi Exclusive dealerships in the U.S. It is to facilitate the perception that VW and Audi are seperate, because it does make a difference in the minds of potential customers. This is a battle that BMW and Mercedes both do not have to fight and I believe that until VW is elevated to a quality brand, its the last thing Audi needs is to face. It will take many years for VW to drop the history that they have created for themselves since the early 90s up until a few years ago. The two companies may have financial ties, distribution networks, etc. but I think it is a very smart decision that they be as seperate as possible in areas where perception can be influenced.

<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/14368/z_reliability_cr.jpg">

audi_dtw

<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/150744/tt_footrest.jpg"></center><p>
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Audi part VW all over it


I am well aware of audi history and that audi was its own company formed from four others way back when and then purchased by the vw group. When audi was purchased things were pretty bad there and if not for vw taking stake who knows if you would be driving around in your ritzy S5 today. Thats why I made that comment.

As for surviving on their own, when you are controlled by a larger company with a controlling stake in you I highly doubt you can say that you are surviving on your own. With the amount of sharing that goes on between vw and audi with engines being a good example. I think audi saves quite a few euros on research and development letting vw take the hit and them showing profit for marketing reasons.

As for vw's reliability. When you manufacture the quantity of vehicles that they do there will no doubt be reliability issues. Just look at the usa's big three. Audi produces much less vehicles therefore putting out a little better product. From scanning these forums there are many people that have issues with their cars. There are still many americans that do not know or dont care who audi is and dont even know that they are owned by vw. I would guess most people that buy audi's in the usa would fall into that category other than people that post on this website. Volkswagen also produces many of the cars they sell is the US in other locations other than europe. I think this contributes to quality issues where audi still makes everything in europe where quality is taken to a different level. All US passats are still made in europe thats probably why you think so highly of them.

I too have been on the factory tour in Ingolstadt at the audi forum. I dont remember them saying that on the bus but I will take your word on it. Been to Wolfsburg too on VW factory tour. Saw the same robots and stamping machines audi has. I doubt they were hand me downs.

Parts wise I agree with you they are showing up with more audi only stamping. But it is only a stamp.

As for the JD Power comment here is what I think. You can not compare vw and audi ratings. One company sells entry level cars that are named Rabbit. The other sells cars that are competing with the top luxury manufacturers products. When I buy a rabbit I would not expect for my $16,000 purchase to deal with a dealership that is worried about customer service. But if I go to buy a R8 I would expect there to be a cappucino machine available if I were to want one. People should not go to a vw dealer and expect entry level prices and audi style service. There are also many audi dealers that dont provide the service you speak of.

I think their push to have exclusive dealerships is because that is what they need to compete with bmw and mercedes to gain customers, not to get rid of vw image. As for the two being separate I went to a my local exclusive dealer here in michigan today and saw two brand new passats on the lot and looked like they were using them as service loaners go figure...

They and VW even moved their NA headquarters to a street named after another partner...

Audi of America, Inc.
2200 Ferdinand Porsche Drive
Herndon, VA 20171

I think vw is a quality brand, would you buy a chrysler before a vw, I see they are ranked before them on your chart. I know i would not.<ul><li><a href="http://www.volkswagengroupamerica.com/">Good Reading!!!</a></li></ul>

Quattrings

I'm not sure that VW cars have had problems in the past because they are mass produced, as there are other companies that are mass produced as well. I do think VWs being made at the Pueblo Mexico plant might contribute to the issues as a lot of this started in the early 90s. The Golf/Jetta III was a problem platform but in all fairness, VW realized it and made adjustments. VW was historically thought of as a reliable alternative to the Japanese cars. It really had a good reputation in the U.S. and was thought of by many as bulletproof. Following that era, quality control seemed to diminish somewhat and everything from Window tabs breaking off (causing the windows to drop into the door) to interior problems were too common. My sister even had to take her car back to the VW dealership after 3 days of ownership because the turbo was falling off the 1.8T engine. This was her second Jetta after trading in her last VW after 1 year because of problems. This is just one example of many that I became aware of, mainly because I recommended the brand to them when they were originally looking for a new car. I dont know how many customers that I sent to VW (same with Audi). When I talk to people about VW now, (on the street, workplace, etc) people nearly always say "they are unreliable" and its an uphill battle for me to help them think otherwise. I think the only way for VW to re-gain the image that they once had is to build trouble-free cars again and push those diesels so that people can put 350k miles on them. The company really lost sight of its customers in the 90s and as a previous die-hard customer - it was unfortunate.

When looking at quality or reliability ratings, I believe you can definitely compare Audi with VW, just as you can compare BMW with Mini or Jaguar with a Kia. The dealership experience (Quattro Cafe vs non) isn't something that is calculated in the Reliability study that I posted. This is a report of problems per 100 vehicles. If I spend 16K USD or 60K, I expect to get a reliable car in this day in age. If Subaru, Toyota, and Honda can do it, then VW surely can. I don't expect all of the same features in a 16k car (as a 60k car) but reliability, yes. VW didn't address the issue for far too long and it is hurting them and will probably continue for the next 5 to possibly 10 years. Audi has finally started to pave its way with a new perception here in the U.S. after being crippled with the Unintended Acceleration Fiasco in the 80s. It's now 20 years ago that Audi reached rock-bottom. That is a ton of time for a company to recover. I do think VW can recover more quickly since their volume is higher and they can get their product out there in greater numbers to overcome the stigma.

Unfortunately, I didn't get the opportunity to take the bus during the Audi Factory Tour but walked with the guide through each part of the factory where different processes took place. She talked about Audi's tooling and the huge amount of investments that the company put into the factory. It was very interesting to hear that VW received the last generation tooling from Audi but it makes sense. I couldn't see them throwing away millions of Euros.

I understand that Audi and VW use the same "VW Gruppe" boxes for many parts (as does Seat and Skoda). Parts distribution and even vehicle distribution use similar avenues. I was mainly referring to the stamp on the actual part itself - as opposed to the box they are packaged in. For many people, it is very nice to buy a VW and see Audi stamps on it. It may no be as nice to buy an Audi and see VW stamps on it. (I'm not sure a Bugatti owner would want to see Audi markings) Like I previously mentioned, I have been on both sides and hope that VW continues on it's trend to bring more exciting, reliable cars to the U.S. as they have had an inventory of vehicles in the U.S. that didn't raise adrenaline levels for too long. The new diesel Jetta, CC Coupe (maybe someday the Scirroco) can help them get back in the game. I hope so, as I have been keeping my fingers crossed that a high-powered Scirroco will eventually make it to our shores.

Thanks for the link, very good information!

audi_dtw

Good discussion I enjoyed it wish there was more like it on here....

Quattrings

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Quattrings

I agree, thank you!