Truth Behind Quattro and Rollers.
01-03-2011, 01:06 PM
#1
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Truth Behind Quattro and Rollers.
As much as these threads have been beat to death I am going to revive them because there is some truth behind these video's. I myself was not a believer of them but now I am. I figured that yes it could happen but you have to be in a real extreme situation for it to happen that most of us will never be in. However, I was in a situation just like this one. After thinking about it I realized that I was basically on rollers except in snow.
For reference purposes here are 2 threads that I posted stories in about the Q5 in the snow:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho....php?t=2797102
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho....php?t=2797139
And here are 2 threads discussing the rollers:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho....php?t=2793698
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho....php?t=2792614
While in our last snow storm resulting in 2 feet or more of snow and driving around in the Q w/ Michelin Latitude Tour HP All Seasons (great tire) I got the car stuck a few times. It was always high centered when I got stuck because i was going through huge snow drifts typically caused by plows. I realized that when I was stuck it was either the fronts or the rears spinning. Both sides spun due to the EDL but the wheels that had more traction did not spin. I did research on this and looked over there threads and realized that the Torsen center diff is a full mechanical unit and does not lock manually or electronically. It's either 40/60 front rear or 65/35 or 15/85. Under normal conditions it works fantastic, great stability and traction while moving, no sliding or anything of that sort. It responds very quickly as well just as it should. However if you get stuck really bad it is the same as an open differential spinning one side but not the other. I tried everything for ESP off to brake torquing to get the damn thing to work and at the end of the day I needed a shovel and some digging to get out. (Maybe some soon to be purchased winter tires for extended grip would help me out) If one axle has no tration the power will be sent there and there wont be enough left over to get the other wheels to move.
Audi needs to put a special snow button in to rectify this with an electronic lock of some sort. That would be nice!
Does that mean our quattro sucks? HELL NO. I still think its awesome and works fantastic but like everything it does have a flaw. Everything has pros and cons. I just wanted to clarify this and give a final ruling on it to educate the masses.
Please if you have anything to add do so, anything to discuss do so or even a disagreement.
Happy New Year!!
For reference purposes here are 2 threads that I posted stories in about the Q5 in the snow:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho....php?t=2797102
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho....php?t=2797139
And here are 2 threads discussing the rollers:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho....php?t=2793698
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho....php?t=2792614
While in our last snow storm resulting in 2 feet or more of snow and driving around in the Q w/ Michelin Latitude Tour HP All Seasons (great tire) I got the car stuck a few times. It was always high centered when I got stuck because i was going through huge snow drifts typically caused by plows. I realized that when I was stuck it was either the fronts or the rears spinning. Both sides spun due to the EDL but the wheels that had more traction did not spin. I did research on this and looked over there threads and realized that the Torsen center diff is a full mechanical unit and does not lock manually or electronically. It's either 40/60 front rear or 65/35 or 15/85. Under normal conditions it works fantastic, great stability and traction while moving, no sliding or anything of that sort. It responds very quickly as well just as it should. However if you get stuck really bad it is the same as an open differential spinning one side but not the other. I tried everything for ESP off to brake torquing to get the damn thing to work and at the end of the day I needed a shovel and some digging to get out. (Maybe some soon to be purchased winter tires for extended grip would help me out) If one axle has no tration the power will be sent there and there wont be enough left over to get the other wheels to move.
Audi needs to put a special snow button in to rectify this with an electronic lock of some sort. That would be nice!
Does that mean our quattro sucks? HELL NO. I still think its awesome and works fantastic but like everything it does have a flaw. Everything has pros and cons. I just wanted to clarify this and give a final ruling on it to educate the masses.
Please if you have anything to add do so, anything to discuss do so or even a disagreement.
Happy New Year!!
Last edited by Coolieman1220; 01-03-2011 at 01:23 PM.
01-03-2011, 01:36 PM
#2
even a totally locked 4wd system will not go anywhere when it is high centered and has no traction (ie all seasons on heavy snow). My van has a viscous coupling, mechanical rear diff lock (read 3wd in the worst situation) and all terrain tires, if I try to drive up a steep slope at an angle and put the front corner into the snow/dirt it will not move forward. Proper snow tires (and knowing the limits of your vehicle) would most likely done more for you then a lockable diff.
Fact is, a large part of America thinks all they need is awd/4wd to get around in the snow. Ask anyone who lives in a part of the country that gets significant snowfall and they will tell you otherwise. The has become more important over the last few years as 4wd suv's with all terrain tires have become awd crossovers with all season "touring" tires.
Am I saying that everyone who sees any amount of snow needs snow tires? No, there isn't a reason for someone who may see snow a couple times of year in DC to spend cash on a winter setup. But what I am saying is just because you live in the mid-atlantic and you've got something that says awd on the back doesn't mean you should consider yourself invincible when you do get 12" of the white stuff.
Fact is, a large part of America thinks all they need is awd/4wd to get around in the snow. Ask anyone who lives in a part of the country that gets significant snowfall and they will tell you otherwise. The has become more important over the last few years as 4wd suv's with all terrain tires have become awd crossovers with all season "touring" tires.
Am I saying that everyone who sees any amount of snow needs snow tires? No, there isn't a reason for someone who may see snow a couple times of year in DC to spend cash on a winter setup. But what I am saying is just because you live in the mid-atlantic and you've got something that says awd on the back doesn't mean you should consider yourself invincible when you do get 12" of the white stuff.
01-03-2011, 06:47 PM
#3
AudiWorld Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was under the impression that the ESP would serve the same function for front-and-rear traction differences that the EDL does for side-to-side on the front and rear differentials. These are open differentials, which is how the Torsen acts when one axle has no traction. So... more or less, same monitoring, same braking concept to transmit torque to the non-spinning axle.
But based on Coolieman's experience, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Looking at this article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro...l_drive_system), it seems that for the next generation quattro, their crown gear differential as they call it, Audi is moving away from Torsen and going to a clutch-based system. This will provide traction to one of the axles, even if the other has no traction at all. According to the article, the 2010 RS5 already has this. It would be interesting to see if they start using this across the product line.
But based on Coolieman's experience, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Looking at this article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro...l_drive_system), it seems that for the next generation quattro, their crown gear differential as they call it, Audi is moving away from Torsen and going to a clutch-based system. This will provide traction to one of the axles, even if the other has no traction at all. According to the article, the 2010 RS5 already has this. It would be interesting to see if they start using this across the product line.
Last edited by gat821; 01-03-2011 at 06:53 PM.
01-03-2011, 08:00 PM
#4
AudiWorld Member
even a totally locked 4wd system will not go anywhere when it is high centered and has no traction (ie all seasons on heavy snow). My van has a viscous coupling, mechanical rear diff lock (read 3wd in the worst situation) and all terrain tires, if I try to drive up a steep slope at an angle and put the front corner into the snow/dirt it will not move forward. Proper snow tires (and knowing the limits of your vehicle) would most likely done more for you then a lockable diff.
01-03-2011, 10:45 PM
#5
AudiWorld Senior Member
First folks need to learn to drive on snowy and icy conditions 
As a thumb rule, you spin the wheel you just screw yourself as you just polish the surface under the tire.
I got high centered and tried to make sure I don't spin the wheels, just reverse off and find another route.
As a thumb rule, you spin the wheel you just screw yourself as you just polish the surface under the tire.
I got high centered and tried to make sure I don't spin the wheels, just reverse off and find another route.
01-04-2011, 04:09 AM
#6
AudiWorld Member
Thanks Coolieman1220 for that detailed description of your experiences with the quattro system.
If I remember correctly, I was derided by the likes of FitzLA, rawg51 and the The_G_Man for suggesting that the Q5 AWD system did in fact perform as demonstrated in the videos.
The fact is that under certain conditions the X3 AWD system will probably perform better than the Q5.
I think the key take away from it all is to test and learn your car's capabilities in a controlled environment and then drive it within it's limitations - irrespective of brand and AWD type.
If I remember correctly, I was derided by the likes of FitzLA, rawg51 and the The_G_Man for suggesting that the Q5 AWD system did in fact perform as demonstrated in the videos.
The fact is that under certain conditions the X3 AWD system will probably perform better than the Q5.
I think the key take away from it all is to test and learn your car's capabilities in a controlled environment and then drive it within it's limitations - irrespective of brand and AWD type.
01-04-2011, 08:12 AM
#7
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
even a totally locked 4wd system will not go anywhere when it is high centered and has no traction (ie all seasons on heavy snow). My van has a viscous coupling, mechanical rear diff lock (read 3wd in the worst situation) and all terrain tires, if I try to drive up a steep slope at an angle and put the front corner into the snow/dirt it will not move forward. Proper snow tires (and knowing the limits of your vehicle) would most likely done more for you then a lockable diff.
Fact is, a large part of America thinks all they need is awd/4wd to get around in the snow. Ask anyone who lives in a part of the country that gets significant snowfall and they will tell you otherwise. The has become more important over the last few years as 4wd suv's with all terrain tires have become awd crossovers with all season "touring" tires.
Am I saying that everyone who sees any amount of snow needs snow tires? No, there isn't a reason for someone who may see snow a couple times of year in DC to spend cash on a winter setup. But what I am saying is just because you live in the mid-atlantic and you've got something that says awd on the back doesn't mean you should consider yourself invincible when you do get 12" of the white stuff.
Fact is, a large part of America thinks all they need is awd/4wd to get around in the snow. Ask anyone who lives in a part of the country that gets significant snowfall and they will tell you otherwise. The has become more important over the last few years as 4wd suv's with all terrain tires have become awd crossovers with all season "touring" tires.
Am I saying that everyone who sees any amount of snow needs snow tires? No, there isn't a reason for someone who may see snow a couple times of year in DC to spend cash on a winter setup. But what I am saying is just because you live in the mid-atlantic and you've got something that says awd on the back doesn't mean you should consider yourself invincible when you do get 12" of the white stuff.
The reason i was high centered was because I was trying to get through three foor plus snow drifts packed in caused by plows while the rest of the car is in 2 feet of snow on one side. yes the rock and roll method works as I used that many times to get out but sometimes it doesn't.
But you are right majority of people especially w/ jeeps think they can do w/e in the snow. Good luck to them!
I was under the impression that the ESP would serve the same function for front-and-rear traction differences that the EDL does for side-to-side on the front and rear differentials. These are open differentials, which is how the Torsen acts when one axle has no traction. So... more or less, same monitoring, same braking concept to transmit torque to the non-spinning axle.
But based on Coolieman's experience, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Looking at this article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro...l_drive_system), it seems that for the next generation quattro, their crown gear differential as they call it, Audi is moving away from Torsen and going to a clutch-based system. This will provide traction to one of the axles, even if the other has no traction at all. According to the article, the 2010 RS5 already has this. It would be interesting to see if they start using this across the product line.
But based on Coolieman's experience, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Looking at this article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro...l_drive_system), it seems that for the next generation quattro, their crown gear differential as they call it, Audi is moving away from Torsen and going to a clutch-based system. This will provide traction to one of the axles, even if the other has no traction at all. According to the article, the 2010 RS5 already has this. It would be interesting to see if they start using this across the product line.
First folks need to learn to drive on snowy and icy conditions
As a thumb rule, you spin the wheel you just screw yourself as you just polish the surface under the tire.
I got high centered and tried to make sure I don't spin the wheels, just reverse off and find another route.
As a thumb rule, you spin the wheel you just screw yourself as you just polish the surface under the tire.
I got high centered and tried to make sure I don't spin the wheels, just reverse off and find another route.
Thanks Coolieman1220 for that detailed description of your experiences with the quattro system.
If I remember correctly, I was derided by the likes of FitzLA, rawg51 and the The_G_Man for suggesting that the Q5 AWD system did in fact perform as demonstrated in the videos.
The fact is that under certain conditions the X3 AWD system will probably perform better than the Q5.
I think the key take away from it all is to test and learn your car's capabilities in a controlled environment and then drive it within it's limitations - irrespective of brand and AWD type.
If I remember correctly, I was derided by the likes of FitzLA, rawg51 and the The_G_Man for suggesting that the Q5 AWD system did in fact perform as demonstrated in the videos.
The fact is that under certain conditions the X3 AWD system will probably perform better than the Q5.
I think the key take away from it all is to test and learn your car's capabilities in a controlled environment and then drive it within it's limitations - irrespective of brand and AWD type.
Last edited by Coolieman1220; 01-04-2011 at 10:36 AM.
Trending Topics
01-04-2011, 08:56 AM
#8
AudiWorld Senior Member
Coolie,
I know what you are talking about as I have showeled myself out so many times and I learned I don't like to do it especially on "daily drives" no matter I have aluminum showel on my trunk, another story is to go out exploring the back roads with attitude "hey lets have showeling exersice" which I did with my Mercedes G that came with all 3 lockers and sure I had to go and see how far it goes
no matter was is sand, mud or snow and then day later I had to go and try to learn a way to go further...
Anyways, at least you got yours into the real situation as most of these awd seems to cruise the sunny pavement.
I know what you are talking about as I have showeled myself out so many times and I learned I don't like to do it especially on "daily drives" no matter I have aluminum showel on my trunk, another story is to go out exploring the back roads with attitude "hey lets have showeling exersice" which I did with my Mercedes G that came with all 3 lockers and sure I had to go and see how far it goes
no matter was is sand, mud or snow and then day later I had to go and try to learn a way to go further...Anyways, at least you got yours into the real situation as most of these awd seems to cruise the sunny pavement.
01-05-2011, 01:33 PM
#9
Audiworld Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Philadelphia PA
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
even a totally locked 4wd system will not go anywhere when it is high centered and has no traction (ie all seasons on heavy snow). My van has a viscous coupling, mechanical rear diff lock (read 3wd in the worst situation) and all terrain tires, if I try to drive up a steep slope at an angle and put the front corner into the snow/dirt it will not move forward. Proper snow tires (and knowing the limits of your vehicle) would most likely done more for you then a lockable diff.
Fact is, a large part of America thinks all they need is awd/4wd to get around in the snow. Ask anyone who lives in a part of the country that gets significant snowfall and they will tell you otherwise. The has become more important over the last few years as 4wd suv's with all terrain tires have become awd crossovers with all season "touring" tires.
Am I saying that everyone who sees any amount of snow needs snow tires? No, there isn't a reason for someone who may see snow a couple times of year in DC to spend cash on a winter setup. But what I am saying is just because you live in the mid-atlantic and you've got something that says awd on the back doesn't mean you should consider yourself invincible when you do get 12" of the white stuff.
Fact is, a large part of America thinks all they need is awd/4wd to get around in the snow. Ask anyone who lives in a part of the country that gets significant snowfall and they will tell you otherwise. The has become more important over the last few years as 4wd suv's with all terrain tires have become awd crossovers with all season "touring" tires.
Am I saying that everyone who sees any amount of snow needs snow tires? No, there isn't a reason for someone who may see snow a couple times of year in DC to spend cash on a winter setup. But what I am saying is just because you live in the mid-atlantic and you've got something that says awd on the back doesn't mean you should consider yourself invincible when you do get 12" of the white stuff.
^this!
Amen
01-05-2011, 04:04 PM
#10
AudiWorld Super User
[QUOTE=
The reason i was high centered was because I was trying to get through three foor plus snow drifts packed in caused by plows while the rest of the car is in 2 feet of snow on one side. yes the rock and roll method works as I used that many times to get out but sometimes it doesn't.
But you are right majority of people especially w/ jeeps think they can do w/e in the snow. Good luck to them!
I thought so too but wrong we are. A clutch system may not be bad but I still prefer the torsen as it is fully mechanical. It works better while driving at speed because it can respond right away without first a computer detecting slip. Howvever a clutch can only help it out. Keep in mind on the RS5 the quattro system is designed for performance on dry roads and wet, not snow. Time will tell if we get it. The Q7 has a BorgWarner center diff. I can only imagine its better.
Once my wheels spin and i go nowhere reverse gear is in and just rock her back and fourth. But when you get high centered bad as i mentioned earlier you need a shovel. Sometimes finding another route isn't as easy as we'd like. 3 out of the 4 times i got stuck i was right in front my house, nowhere better to get stuck and really push the limits to find out what can and can't be done. I must say the sealed bottom and full 8" of ground clearance really help as there isn't much for the car to get stuck on, liek A arms to hook it in. I've seen your video before and was really impressed by it and now after putting my car through worst and having it go no issue it truly is amazing.
How often will you be in a roller situation? As said before if you are high centered in most vehicles you will be stuck no matter what you have. As i said before each system has pros and cons. How often do we have 2 feet of snow and a crappy job done by our cleaning crews to punish the mayor and city for budget cuts? Quattro gave me stability and control that I could only dream of. Of course ESP does help too but I'd take quattro anyday. Who wants a BMW w/ xdrive? they look so high..i prefer my bimmers w/ sports packages![/QUOTE]
Great write-up, but forgive my ignorance - what is "high centered"?
Bob
The reason i was high centered was because I was trying to get through three foor plus snow drifts packed in caused by plows while the rest of the car is in 2 feet of snow on one side. yes the rock and roll method works as I used that many times to get out but sometimes it doesn't.
But you are right majority of people especially w/ jeeps think they can do w/e in the snow. Good luck to them!
I thought so too but wrong we are. A clutch system may not be bad but I still prefer the torsen as it is fully mechanical. It works better while driving at speed because it can respond right away without first a computer detecting slip. Howvever a clutch can only help it out. Keep in mind on the RS5 the quattro system is designed for performance on dry roads and wet, not snow. Time will tell if we get it. The Q7 has a BorgWarner center diff. I can only imagine its better.
Once my wheels spin and i go nowhere reverse gear is in and just rock her back and fourth. But when you get high centered bad as i mentioned earlier you need a shovel. Sometimes finding another route isn't as easy as we'd like. 3 out of the 4 times i got stuck i was right in front my house, nowhere better to get stuck and really push the limits to find out what can and can't be done. I must say the sealed bottom and full 8" of ground clearance really help as there isn't much for the car to get stuck on, liek A arms to hook it in. I've seen your video before and was really impressed by it and now after putting my car through worst and having it go no issue it truly is amazing.
How often will you be in a roller situation? As said before if you are high centered in most vehicles you will be stuck no matter what you have. As i said before each system has pros and cons. How often do we have 2 feet of snow and a crappy job done by our cleaning crews to punish the mayor and city for budget cuts? Quattro gave me stability and control that I could only dream of. Of course ESP does help too but I'd take quattro anyday. Who wants a BMW w/ xdrive? they look so high..i prefer my bimmers w/ sports packages![/QUOTE]
Great write-up, but forgive my ignorance - what is "high centered"?
Bob