greatwhiteshark

73hp per liter. They need a new transmission for that motor. The old (modified) MB E-Class trans was a good piece of engineering in its day, but Chrysler should have held out a little longer for that 7G-Tronic that's in the AMGs now. I think the only SRT product that would really be a match for the RS4 is, ironically, the Jeep Grand Cherokee, because of its explosive launch from standstill due to its AWD. That runs out at the 1/4 mile marker though since the Jeep is a brick. (Also, I spose the Viper is an SRT product too, but nobody calls it that.)

ESFO

Both cars were made with some seriously potent engines and the cars were lightweights. Are you forgetting the 68 Hemi Darts? Or the 340, 383 or 440 darts? They were insane. The 340 Darts were embarrassing big block cars of every make and model.

<img src="http://tpiwwp.com/showoriginal-887/hemi_dart.jpg">

daveak05

when the true muscle cars like the Mustang Mach 1, Boss and Shelby, the Camaro SS and Z28, The Cougar, the Charger and Challenger/Cuda(later) hit it big, GM, Ford and Chrysler started slapping performance and body work on a lot of their other lesser cars(Nova, Dart, Skylark, etc).

I think they were a notch below the true American muscle cars.

daveak05

a 6 spd MT is on the way for the Challenger SRT8. So, those who want to shoot it down based on the initial AT version, should keep that in mind.

All they have to do is dial up that motor and WHOLE different story. And very good point about the Cherokee SRT. Those are not to be trifled with.

ESFO

Challenger and Cuda are the followers. The Dart and Nova were the original, small, killer muscle cars when equipped with hi-po engine.

Examples:
1966 Nova (or Chevy II) with the 350hp, 327 engine.
1968 Nova with the 375hp, 396 engine
1968 Dodge Dart with your choice, 340 thru 426 Hemi engines

These were cars that terrorized the streets. No body work, no wild paint. These cars were true sleepers that just flat out ran.

These two cars grace the covers of Musclecar magazines with regularity. I think you're confusing "image" cars with musclecars. Fancy and pretty didn't make a musclecar. Engine and performance did. The performance versions of the Dart and Nova were true musclecar screamers.

And remember that although the Dart and Nova had humble beginnings, even the Challenger, Barracuda and Camaro could be had with a grocery getter 6 cylinder engine.

daveak05

I recently saw a program about the whole muscle car thing on The History channel. They went into how after the Mustang made such a big spalsh in 1965, followed closely by the Camaro, that the big 3 started to capitalize on the whole muscle car image by applying it to other models in their lineup.


And yes, the Mustang, Camaro, Cougar, etc offered bread and butter versions with 6 cyls. But, that was a matter of selling as much out of the design as possible...always the name of the game. They were, however, designed as performance cars, unlike the others that were in existence already as mediocre family haulers.

Answer this question: does a vintage Dodge Dart or Nova command anywhere near the price in the collectors market as that of the others mentioned?

I hear what you're saying and you facts are dead on. I think it's just a matter of which of the cars were the true performance cars, by stds of the day. Look at the Mustang and Camaro design---the body. Then look at the Dart and Nova, which were lowly family cars which were then transformed into muscle cars(engine, boy racer graphics, wider tires). There's a very real difference there.

daveak05

I think you came down pretty hard on the new Challenger SRT8.

What do you think would happen if they easily bumped the 6.1 Hemi up to 550 HP(w/ 6spd manual) and further buttoned down the suspension?

It's 200 lbs heavier than the RS4, which doesn't mean it's a "pig", but is directly related to its larger proportions. On the contrary, the RS4 could be considered a pig, considering it's small size...same goes for the S4.

ESFO

That they started life as the brand's economy cars. Understood. I just disagree that we should discount what they became, which was factory street/strip terrors, real musclecars.

As far as value is concerned, the value of the car doesn't determine whether or not it was a musclecar, in fact, it has nothing to do with it. Does the fact that a convertible 71 Hemi Cuda will bring 2 million at auction make it anymore a musclecar than a 69 Camaro SS convertible that is only valued at 75,000? No. It just makes it a less 'desirable' musclecar. The desirability of a musclecar is determined by many variables.

But, the value of a restored Nova or Dart is respectable and in line with many lesser desirable true musclecars. A '66 Nova SS is anywhere from 30k to 50k, a little less than a Chevelle SS. A factory 426 Hemi Dart will command a half million at least. A big block Dart will bring 30-60k or about the same as a Challenger R/T with a 340 or 383 engine.

And neither the Nova or Dart ever had boy racer graphics from the factory. A very subtle stripe on the tail like the Charger was about all for the Dart GTS but even that was optional and usually dealer installed.

Here's a link to the 2 million dollar Cuda... Insane.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/20/2007-rm-auction-scottsdale-hemi-cuda-convertible-brings-2-2/

daveak05

about the timing of those early muscle cars. It wasn't until later when the big 3 really ramped up muscle versions of Mustang, Camaro, Cougar, etc.

On the 'value' thing, I was trying to point out which of the muscle cars are in high demand as collector items and command a much higher price. And sure, the value is determnined to some extent by availablitity. But it's also affected by how much in demand a particular muscle car is. Darts and Nova's aren't at the top of anyone's list, in reality. More of them still around, and they weren't as popular at the time either.

You're right, the Dart and Nova came from the factory pretty tame, understated, as you say. I do believe that Chrysler sent some out to custom and tuning houses, similar to Ford and Shelby. So, IIRC, there were 'special' models of the Dart and Nova conjured up...in later MY's.

I CAN say that I would love to have the new Challenger, but not until 6 spd manual, and possible future engine/performance upgrades. I don't worry about it being derived from a 300 platform, because all the others are too...sharing platforms...even Audi. It's almost non-existent for mfgrs to come out with a dedicated, single platform for cars anymore. It would be a losing $ proposition every time.

ESFO

They usually had bold graphics. Those were very limited cars that command big bucks today.

I would definitely buy a Challenger over a Mustang if they weren't so big and heavy. I can excuse it in my daily driver but not in my 'race' car.

I'm not sure what toy I'm gonna build next. I'm considering a 1970 Cuda with a big block or a 67-69 Dart with a "big" small block OR go back and build another 700hp Cobra. I'm leaning towards the old...