Audi FSI engine misfires
04-06-2007, 09:34 AM
#81
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Yes...
and didn't they specifically state that in that AoA letter you posted here?
I feel bad for Audi owners who actually buy into this 'Shell Vpower or else' crap.
I have never seen an example as blatantly ludicrous as this VAG-Shell Vpower thing.
I feel bad for Audi owners who actually buy into this 'Shell Vpower or else' crap.
I have never seen an example as blatantly ludicrous as this VAG-Shell Vpower thing.
04-06-2007, 09:44 AM
#83
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Because I like to support R&D by small companies who have advanced technology
I'd rather my money go to small businesses, than large corporations whenever possible.
04-06-2007, 09:47 AM
#84
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Ahh, nothing wrong with that...
as long as the products of these small indies are up to snuff. There's where it gets a little murky. I have a feeling that if you actually went to see their operations you might think twice.
04-06-2007, 09:50 AM
#85
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Dave, you are going over the top here
European Shell fuels are far more advanced than our fuels. Low Sulfur is a "big thing". They technology they used to develop low sulfur gasoline will be seen in the US in low sulfur diesel. Audi and VW have definitely taken the lead in diesel engines for passenger cars.
IMO there is nothing wrong with that. In Europe, if you are running FSI engines, you have to use low sulfur gasoline, no if's, and's or but's. Stratified mode of operation requires low sulfur fuels. But they can afford it over there, since their fuels are significantly more expensive then here. For economic reasons alone, our gasoline has high sulfur content, which is why FSI was neutered in the US market.
IMO there is nothing wrong with that. In Europe, if you are running FSI engines, you have to use low sulfur gasoline, no if's, and's or but's. Stratified mode of operation requires low sulfur fuels. But they can afford it over there, since their fuels are significantly more expensive then here. For economic reasons alone, our gasoline has high sulfur content, which is why FSI was neutered in the US market.
04-06-2007, 09:58 AM
#86
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Show me where...
other major brands are not pursuing, or already have low sulfur fuels. It's not simply an FSI thing.
If you read that Techron blurb I included in another thread recently, you will see where Techron, which by the way is in every gallon of Chevron gas sold at the pump, specifically fights sulfur deposits, which in Chevron's words, exist in some lower grade gas brands out there...primarily outside the US, where refining techniques may stop short of here. I'm obviously not talking about Europe in this case.
Sulfur in fuel is supposed to be refined out. The heavier(Saudi) crude is high in sulfur. That's why it needs much more refinement than say North Sea light crude. But, it IS refined to ONE standard before it goes out for consumption by the public.
Scott, don't take things so literally. That may be your achilles heel in some cases.
If you read that Techron blurb I included in another thread recently, you will see where Techron, which by the way is in every gallon of Chevron gas sold at the pump, specifically fights sulfur deposits, which in Chevron's words, exist in some lower grade gas brands out there...primarily outside the US, where refining techniques may stop short of here. I'm obviously not talking about Europe in this case.
Sulfur in fuel is supposed to be refined out. The heavier(Saudi) crude is high in sulfur. That's why it needs much more refinement than say North Sea light crude. But, it IS refined to ONE standard before it goes out for consumption by the public.
Scott, don't take things so literally. That may be your achilles heel in some cases.
04-06-2007, 10:17 AM
#87
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Well of course they are .. this is marketing 101 ... first guy to claim it invented it.
The reality is in the marketing message.
However we cut it, European fuel is cleaner than US fuel, and clean low sulfur fuel is required for full FSI (at least in Audi's implementation.) It costs more to refine out the sulfur, which is way we don't have it here. Simple economics.
That Audi and Shell co-market their low sulfur fuel developments in Europe is just good marketing. Don't blame them for that.
As for the US market, I'm glad that we have direct injection engines. But, I think Audi did not do all the homework necessary to ensure that they work well with our fuel, and the oils that they specify. (I still think most of the deposit problems are due to oil breakdown. Fuel additives only clean up after the fact.)
What torques my *** is the simple fix statement that V-power will solve the problem. They have not publicly stated this (and probably could not, since it would violate anti-trust laws). But they seem to have stated this to service techs, and techs to their customers who have problems. I say "seem", since I have not been given this advice myself. I've only heard it stated by my tech.
Whatever problem there is with engine deposits is an engine design problem for this market. This market has ****ty fuel, and is also limited (by Audi's own requirements for 502 oils, which are tested to run in old 4 cylinder engines without direct injection. The engines they design now need to fit into those constraints for the average Joe.
We high performance nerds can deal with the special circumstances our driving styles and obsessive-compulsive traits require. But the average soccer mom ain't going to fill up with Shell, when the local el-cheapo gas station is 20 cents a gallon cheaper. And that same soccer mom will follow Audi's service recommendations to the letter, and change oil every 10K miles, whether it needs it or not. This last fact may be Audi's Achilles Heal, if they don't wrap their head around these issues quickly.
The "bad gas" mantra ain't gonna fly, when every other car in the US runs on the same gas and works just fine.
However we cut it, European fuel is cleaner than US fuel, and clean low sulfur fuel is required for full FSI (at least in Audi's implementation.) It costs more to refine out the sulfur, which is way we don't have it here. Simple economics.
That Audi and Shell co-market their low sulfur fuel developments in Europe is just good marketing. Don't blame them for that.
As for the US market, I'm glad that we have direct injection engines. But, I think Audi did not do all the homework necessary to ensure that they work well with our fuel, and the oils that they specify. (I still think most of the deposit problems are due to oil breakdown. Fuel additives only clean up after the fact.)
What torques my *** is the simple fix statement that V-power will solve the problem. They have not publicly stated this (and probably could not, since it would violate anti-trust laws). But they seem to have stated this to service techs, and techs to their customers who have problems. I say "seem", since I have not been given this advice myself. I've only heard it stated by my tech.
Whatever problem there is with engine deposits is an engine design problem for this market. This market has ****ty fuel, and is also limited (by Audi's own requirements for 502 oils, which are tested to run in old 4 cylinder engines without direct injection. The engines they design now need to fit into those constraints for the average Joe.
We high performance nerds can deal with the special circumstances our driving styles and obsessive-compulsive traits require. But the average soccer mom ain't going to fill up with Shell, when the local el-cheapo gas station is 20 cents a gallon cheaper. And that same soccer mom will follow Audi's service recommendations to the letter, and change oil every 10K miles, whether it needs it or not. This last fact may be Audi's Achilles Heal, if they don't wrap their head around these issues quickly.
The "bad gas" mantra ain't gonna fly, when every other car in the US runs on the same gas and works just fine.
04-06-2007, 10:53 AM
#88
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Okay Scott, put this in your pipe and smoke it...
It is one thing for a car company to recommend this product or that, and we see it all the time in the OM and even under the hood.
It is quite another thing to "require" it and then use that as a wedge in any warranty claims.
It appears that VAG is beginning to do exactly that, first thru intimidation of owners, and then warranty denial.
If VAG is foolish enough to pursue this highly dubious policy on an official level, then they will soon find themselves embroiled in a class action lawsuit and the US courts will rip them new one.
And, if VAG indeed does it this way, I for one will be happy to see them suffer the consequences.
As fo Euro fuels being cleaner than US, I suppose on average, considering the low level of diesel fuel usage in the US, that that claim could be made. Bottom line is there is ZERO validity to any stmt that Shell Vpower is supperior in cleaning properties than any of the other major brands, as formulated for the US market. Shell may be ahead of some other Euro brands, but that is irrelevant to this dicussion.
What is relevant is neither Shell nor VAG can tell owners that Shell gas is a requirement in order for the car to run properly. That is WAY over the line, and patently false...AND, I have seen 2 VAG communiques to this effect here already.
That's what has me PO'd. The fact that they may be attempting to set up their loyal customers for denial of warranty claims based on the flimsiest, most suspect crap.
It is quite another thing to "require" it and then use that as a wedge in any warranty claims.
It appears that VAG is beginning to do exactly that, first thru intimidation of owners, and then warranty denial.
If VAG is foolish enough to pursue this highly dubious policy on an official level, then they will soon find themselves embroiled in a class action lawsuit and the US courts will rip them new one.
And, if VAG indeed does it this way, I for one will be happy to see them suffer the consequences.
As fo Euro fuels being cleaner than US, I suppose on average, considering the low level of diesel fuel usage in the US, that that claim could be made. Bottom line is there is ZERO validity to any stmt that Shell Vpower is supperior in cleaning properties than any of the other major brands, as formulated for the US market. Shell may be ahead of some other Euro brands, but that is irrelevant to this dicussion.
What is relevant is neither Shell nor VAG can tell owners that Shell gas is a requirement in order for the car to run properly. That is WAY over the line, and patently false...AND, I have seen 2 VAG communiques to this effect here already.
That's what has me PO'd. The fact that they may be attempting to set up their loyal customers for denial of warranty claims based on the flimsiest, most suspect crap.
04-06-2007, 11:06 AM
#89
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Dave, I agree with you fully.
It is not legal for them to require a particular product, unless they provide it for free. They would be well advised to start providing fuel additive to their customers for free, before requiring a specific fuel brand.
Or better yet, they might try fixing the actual issue with the engines that is causing the problem in the first place. But, this will probably require a new oil and a new oil standard. Between now and then, they would have to provide free oil changes with stuff that works under the load of direct injection.
Or better yet, they might try fixing the actual issue with the engines that is causing the problem in the first place. But, this will probably require a new oil and a new oil standard. Between now and then, they would have to provide free oil changes with stuff that works under the load of direct injection.
