My dealer used Mobil 1, strange?
06-01-2007, 09:46 PM
#52
Yes, it's an average rate and has the assumption of a constant rate
Yes, it can be different than that and might possibly be. Some oils have constant rates. Others have decreasing rates. It is dependent upon whether or not the tribological wear films are deposited and stay put on the load bearing surfaces, or if they are continuously scrubbed off, either by mechanical or chemical (fuel dilution) stresses.
If the additive wear films are scrubbed, then the rate is closer to constant. If the wear films remain stable, they protect the underlying metal and significantly reduce the long term wear rates.
I mentioned this once before. You can see this effect in oil analysis if you take multiple samples over time. There is initially a wear particle number due to the engine wear before the films have been deposited and stabilize, along with residual particles from the previous oil. For example a 10 ppm reading in the 1st 100 miles.
If the oil wear films remain stable, the rate drops to a much lower number. Then you might see 12 ppm at 1K miles, 12 ppm at 2k miles ... and so on.
If the oil wear films are not stable and are scrubbed away, you will see the rate drop slightly, but remain essentially stable and constant from a few 100 miles on out. So in that case you might see 10 ppm at 100 miles, 15 ppm at 1000 miles, 20 ppm at 2000 miles, 25 ppm at 3000 miles and so on.
We see the later behavior in all 502 oils tested, with some being worse than others. Mobil 1 is definitely of the class of poor performing anti wear additive films in this engine. It seems to be running higher wear rates than other oils. And it is problematic, because those numbers were taken out of an engine with significant miles, yet the wear numbers look something like we'd see in the break-in region. It's acting as if the oil is continuously wearing some component of the engine down. Castrol shows similar behavior at similar levels. Motul shows similar behaviors, but at lower wear levels.
On the other hand, Amsoil shows our well-behaved pattern with reasonably low wear. And our custom oil shows our well-behaved pattern with ultra low wear for this engine.
If the additive wear films are scrubbed, then the rate is closer to constant. If the wear films remain stable, they protect the underlying metal and significantly reduce the long term wear rates.
I mentioned this once before. You can see this effect in oil analysis if you take multiple samples over time. There is initially a wear particle number due to the engine wear before the films have been deposited and stabilize, along with residual particles from the previous oil. For example a 10 ppm reading in the 1st 100 miles.
If the oil wear films remain stable, the rate drops to a much lower number. Then you might see 12 ppm at 1K miles, 12 ppm at 2k miles ... and so on.
If the oil wear films are not stable and are scrubbed away, you will see the rate drop slightly, but remain essentially stable and constant from a few 100 miles on out. So in that case you might see 10 ppm at 100 miles, 15 ppm at 1000 miles, 20 ppm at 2000 miles, 25 ppm at 3000 miles and so on.
We see the later behavior in all 502 oils tested, with some being worse than others. Mobil 1 is definitely of the class of poor performing anti wear additive films in this engine. It seems to be running higher wear rates than other oils. And it is problematic, because those numbers were taken out of an engine with significant miles, yet the wear numbers look something like we'd see in the break-in region. It's acting as if the oil is continuously wearing some component of the engine down. Castrol shows similar behavior at similar levels. Motul shows similar behaviors, but at lower wear levels.
On the other hand, Amsoil shows our well-behaved pattern with reasonably low wear. And our custom oil shows our well-behaved pattern with ultra low wear for this engine.
06-01-2007, 09:53 PM
#55
But that is not what you said.
He is not losing money. Which is what you said. He has a net profit. He is just not making as much as he does with other contracts. This is not an uncommon business practice, and certainly not uncommon in consulting.
Terry is straight up and honest. I've gotten to know him pretty well in the past year and I've learned that sometimes he does this work for consumers because he loves the work. In this case, he truly believes this engine has some serious issues, and would like to solve them before the engine tanks. The oil analysis results we are getting with this engine are quite unique, when placed in the context of other engines he's seen over the course of 30 years.
Terry is straight up and honest. I've gotten to know him pretty well in the past year and I've learned that sometimes he does this work for consumers because he loves the work. In this case, he truly believes this engine has some serious issues, and would like to solve them before the engine tanks. The oil analysis results we are getting with this engine are quite unique, when placed in the context of other engines he's seen over the course of 30 years.
06-01-2007, 10:07 PM
#59
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semantics....making less money=losing money, from my perspective.
the notion that he's doing this because he 'cares' is absurd. if that's the case, why not do it for free? the spectrometer he uses is surely paid for, so he wouldn't be LOSING money, right?
06-01-2007, 10:08 PM
#60
Dave, how many oil analysis samples have you taken and interpreted?
What you just fail to understand is that cold start causes a wear problem with modern multi-viscosity synthetic or semi-synthetic oils, if, and only if, the high pressure additive and anti-wear package fails.
But for your gratification, both cars were driven at the same time of the year, during the winter. Both experienced cold starts and were used as daily drivers. And although I cannot vouch for M1, since I've continuously stated that I have only one sample on this engine, I can say that the Castrol numbers are consistent across several engines. And the M1 result is consistent with the results on other engine types, where it is specifically noted as having high iron wear often on BITOG.
My opinion is that you believe this is much more complex and mysterious than it actually is. These engines kill every oil that is placed in them. Different oils react more slowly, but the fact is, fuel dumped in the oil will degrade and destroy any oil. Many oils, while in the process of being destroyed, will let loose of the anti wear layers which coat bearings, thereby increasing wear. Some oils are able to replenish those layers quickly and reduce overall wear. Some very special oils are able to fight and keep those layers intact, and are able to drop wear levels by a factor of 2 or 3:1
It is that simple.
But for your gratification, both cars were driven at the same time of the year, during the winter. Both experienced cold starts and were used as daily drivers. And although I cannot vouch for M1, since I've continuously stated that I have only one sample on this engine, I can say that the Castrol numbers are consistent across several engines. And the M1 result is consistent with the results on other engine types, where it is specifically noted as having high iron wear often on BITOG.
My opinion is that you believe this is much more complex and mysterious than it actually is. These engines kill every oil that is placed in them. Different oils react more slowly, but the fact is, fuel dumped in the oil will degrade and destroy any oil. Many oils, while in the process of being destroyed, will let loose of the anti wear layers which coat bearings, thereby increasing wear. Some oils are able to replenish those layers quickly and reduce overall wear. Some very special oils are able to fight and keep those layers intact, and are able to drop wear levels by a factor of 2 or 3:1
It is that simple.