My dealer used Mobil 1, strange?
06-01-2007, 10:20 PM
#61
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that doesn't strengthen your position on this
and no matter the oil, cold start is the least optimum lubrication condition the engine faces on a regular basis.
no, i don't believe it is much more complex than it actually is. you are presenting this in all it's dubious complexity, disseminating bits of crucial data into models that fit into what you're looking for. the farther you go out on a limb with all this, the harder it gets to reconcile with known fact, Scott.
by layers coating metals i assume you are talking about the oils ability at adhesion. the thinner weight oils present a problem right there. time between each engine start factors in heavily. filtering efficiency(flow and in removing particles) also figures in heavily. along with many other variables already mentioned.
i understand what you're trying to prove here, i just can't get a grasp on how you're going about trying to prove it.
it is useful info to a point, beyond which it gets very dicey. and others here should keep things in perspective throughout these multiple and headache producing oil discussions on the RS4 board.
no, i don't believe it is much more complex than it actually is. you are presenting this in all it's dubious complexity, disseminating bits of crucial data into models that fit into what you're looking for. the farther you go out on a limb with all this, the harder it gets to reconcile with known fact, Scott.
by layers coating metals i assume you are talking about the oils ability at adhesion. the thinner weight oils present a problem right there. time between each engine start factors in heavily. filtering efficiency(flow and in removing particles) also figures in heavily. along with many other variables already mentioned.
i understand what you're trying to prove here, i just can't get a grasp on how you're going about trying to prove it.
it is useful info to a point, beyond which it gets very dicey. and others here should keep things in perspective throughout these multiple and headache producing oil discussions on the RS4 board.
06-01-2007, 10:20 PM
#62
Bob, he uses an independent outside lab for analysis
And has to pay them, also. Obviously there are multiple reasons that he does this for a lower cost to me. He's not altruistic. Several reasons are:
Marketing
Developing proprietary knowledge on a new engine
And the love of it
I often take on projects at lower rates in my business for the same reasons. We do some pretty cool leading-edge projects at lower bids sometimes because we like to advance technology. I have one customer who always receives a lower rate, because we have a longterm on-going relationship built on trust. I don't do work for free, nor would I expect any other professional consultant to.
You seem to assume either nefarious motives or hidden agendas for people quite often. There is no hidden agenda here. I'm quite out in the open with my motives and agendas, as is Terry. The man is held in high regards in his industry. And you don't stay in business as a consultant after 30 years if you lie to people or try to frighten them into using your service. That works in the short term, but not in the long term.
Marketing
Developing proprietary knowledge on a new engine
And the love of it
I often take on projects at lower rates in my business for the same reasons. We do some pretty cool leading-edge projects at lower bids sometimes because we like to advance technology. I have one customer who always receives a lower rate, because we have a longterm on-going relationship built on trust. I don't do work for free, nor would I expect any other professional consultant to.
You seem to assume either nefarious motives or hidden agendas for people quite often. There is no hidden agenda here. I'm quite out in the open with my motives and agendas, as is Terry. The man is held in high regards in his industry. And you don't stay in business as a consultant after 30 years if you lie to people or try to frighten them into using your service. That works in the short term, but not in the long term.
06-01-2007, 10:27 PM
#63
No dave, not the oil. I meant what i said. It is not an oil film but multiple additives
there are high pressure and anti-wear films that are in the additives. the are not oils. Here's a link to recent information on the subject digested by Molekule, who is chemist and oil formulator, and considered to be an expert.
These additives are used in the boundary and mixed lubrication regimes, not the hydrodynamic regime.<ul><li><a href="http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=721319&an=0& page=0#Post721319">Friction Reducers and AW Additives</a></li></ul>
These additives are used in the boundary and mixed lubrication regimes, not the hydrodynamic regime.<ul><li><a href="http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=721319&an=0& page=0#Post721319">Friction Reducers and AW Additives</a></li></ul>
06-01-2007, 10:36 PM
#64
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you said "oil film". if you were talking about residues left behind, should have said so
yes, many advances constantly being made in oils ability to provide a lubrication barrier.
then your high fuel dilution rate comes along and washes it all away.
i am seeing the beginnings of some don quixote in you : )
then your high fuel dilution rate comes along and washes it all away.
i am seeing the beginnings of some don quixote in you : )
06-01-2007, 10:49 PM
#66
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i'm surprised you admit that marketing is a benefit.
that just proves my point that he's profiting from paranoia. he does your UOA, you post here endlessly about how great he is and how everyone's oil is most certainly **** and should be analyzed, he gets more UOA orders, he makes more money. bingo!
06-01-2007, 10:59 PM
#67
Nope, i specifically said "tribological wear films" and "anti wear layers" above
I don't believe I ever said oil films. If I did, I apologize. I think you may have interpreted anti-wear layers as oil films. It's the thing that people don't get about oil. 99.999% of the time the bearings are riding on top of a wonderful flowing film of oil. But in three places they are not.
1) cold start
2) Cams, rockers, followers
3) chains.
These are generally boundary layer lubrication where the pressures are extremely high. The AW/EP/FM additives are responsible for nearly 100% of the lubrication in these areas. If they don't do a good job ... wear increases significantly.
That's the problem we have. The engine destroys these layers due to dilution, sheer and extreme pressures. Terry designed an oil specifically to use better AW/EP/FM additives that are also more expensive, along with base oils designed to combat dilution at the rings, and an advanced copper/antimony antioxidant additive package, which keeps the oil from degrading. The methods used were independent from, but similar to some Lubrizol patents and papers written about specific oil design for the mitigation of deposit formation in gasoline direct injection engines. Lubrizol is a heavy hitter in the oil additive market, but thus far no manufacturer has brought an oil to the market licensed with Lubrizol technology.
1) cold start
2) Cams, rockers, followers
3) chains.
These are generally boundary layer lubrication where the pressures are extremely high. The AW/EP/FM additives are responsible for nearly 100% of the lubrication in these areas. If they don't do a good job ... wear increases significantly.
That's the problem we have. The engine destroys these layers due to dilution, sheer and extreme pressures. Terry designed an oil specifically to use better AW/EP/FM additives that are also more expensive, along with base oils designed to combat dilution at the rings, and an advanced copper/antimony antioxidant additive package, which keeps the oil from degrading. The methods used were independent from, but similar to some Lubrizol patents and papers written about specific oil design for the mitigation of deposit formation in gasoline direct injection engines. Lubrizol is a heavy hitter in the oil additive market, but thus far no manufacturer has brought an oil to the market licensed with Lubrizol technology.
06-01-2007, 11:08 PM
#68
So?
It doesn't prove your point. You're accusing the man of lying and exaggeration to make money. At $50 a pop, he doesn't make a living off consumer level oil analysis. He makes his money solving real problems with companies. The consumer business has the potential to open up further market potential in other areas.
What benefit would it be to say that the sky is falling, when eventually you will be found to be wrong, and that your business is based on a fraud? I've been a consultant long enough to know that is the quickest way to kill a business. In the internet age, even more so. You can do that short term, but not long term and remain a viable business.
What benefit would it be to say that the sky is falling, when eventually you will be found to be wrong, and that your business is based on a fraud? I've been a consultant long enough to know that is the quickest way to kill a business. In the internet age, even more so. You can do that short term, but not long term and remain a viable business.