Our experiences with the latest high-performance sedans
10-04-2006, 09:09 AM
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Our experiences with the latest high-performance sedans
Those who know me (primarily from the B5 board), know my involvement in the automotive design industry and also know I don't post much but toss my work experiences in once in a while when they come about and when they might relate to fellow Audi enthusiasts.
Last weekend we were in a closed course review with the new Mercedes Benz CLS63, E63, Audi RS4, Audi S6, BMW M5 and 550 and two new Cadillac models which are not on the market (yet). Press is strictly prohibited at these studies and my work agreement prohibits me from saying diddly squat about the Caddys but I thought I would comment about the other vehicles involved. As an aside this is what we call a progressive engineering and design review -- most automotive companies do this while still under new model development, this is typically performed when developing high-end or performance oriented automobiles with a more narrowed target market (there's not enough research and marketing money to do this with every model or even your $15K Chevy Cobalt would have extra costs passed down to the consumer).
A little of my views and experience
The S6, quite the sleeper, we all agreed that for a long trip this would be our favorite. The new seats are more comfortable than the RS4 or anything Mercedes or BMW has to offer, yes Audi still ranks #1 in interior design (though I am still not a fan of the I-drive or similar). I still like the M5 seats over the RS4 seats but again everyone is shaped different so it's really how you fit in each. The broad range of the torque in the V10 of the S6 is nothing short of joyous, it just keeps pulling and pulling, the HP from what I recall is only 15 less than the S8 but with significant weight savings from the A8 platform. This particular S6 had the optional wheels that the new S8 comes with but at a sticker of mid to high 70K range. If you don't need the room of an S8 (or the extra 30k price tag) this seems to be the way to go.
Since most of you have the RS4 I won't get into my personal experience but I tend to favor tighter more manueverable vehicles and this was really the lightweight (though not by performance) of the group.
As far as straightline performance the M5 was the beast, no surprise there but the E63 and CLS63 would also edge out the RS4. If you look at the power and torque of these new engines it's easy to see why. The E63's power comes on more linear than the past E55 as I expected it to be. Like they always say, there is no replacement for displacement. Though the CLS63 is slightly heavier than the E63 the rear end gear ratio of the CLS is slightly higher making the straight-line acceleration difference between the two Benz's barely noticeable. Most of our group agreed on this. We also were impressed on how these big Benz's can handle the weight shift when we put the cars through their places, both Benz's had very good control for their size with little understeer or oversteer -- the RS4 still exceeded anything the Benz's could muster but the performance gap was not as great as one would hope.
We all liked the BMW 550 but with a few options the price bumped you into the bracket of the RS4 or the S6 and nobody in the group would choose the BMW 550 over the S6, the S6 offered so much more for almost the same money. The 550 is really there to be the poor-mans M5 and the car to compete against the M-B E500 (now the E550) as the gap between the BMW 550 and BMW 530 are significant when it comes to the performance aspect of things.
I could go on an on but I rambled enough here. I wish I could talk about the 2 Caddys but I can't, in the future I probably will though. Of course a few of us were asking where the early production M3 was but we just got smiles. One guy said even if it were available it would have to be a 4-door to be part of the critique.
Let me not that all of these cars were post-break-in period.
I hope you enjoyed the read, again please don't mistake this post as a "performance shoot out" that's not what this particular study was about . . . and as you probably can guess they rarely allow cameras and as of the past 2 years you have to check your cell phones in the private airport hanger (now due to the camera phones).
Cheers,
Alex
Last weekend we were in a closed course review with the new Mercedes Benz CLS63, E63, Audi RS4, Audi S6, BMW M5 and 550 and two new Cadillac models which are not on the market (yet). Press is strictly prohibited at these studies and my work agreement prohibits me from saying diddly squat about the Caddys but I thought I would comment about the other vehicles involved. As an aside this is what we call a progressive engineering and design review -- most automotive companies do this while still under new model development, this is typically performed when developing high-end or performance oriented automobiles with a more narrowed target market (there's not enough research and marketing money to do this with every model or even your $15K Chevy Cobalt would have extra costs passed down to the consumer).
A little of my views and experience
The S6, quite the sleeper, we all agreed that for a long trip this would be our favorite. The new seats are more comfortable than the RS4 or anything Mercedes or BMW has to offer, yes Audi still ranks #1 in interior design (though I am still not a fan of the I-drive or similar). I still like the M5 seats over the RS4 seats but again everyone is shaped different so it's really how you fit in each. The broad range of the torque in the V10 of the S6 is nothing short of joyous, it just keeps pulling and pulling, the HP from what I recall is only 15 less than the S8 but with significant weight savings from the A8 platform. This particular S6 had the optional wheels that the new S8 comes with but at a sticker of mid to high 70K range. If you don't need the room of an S8 (or the extra 30k price tag) this seems to be the way to go.
Since most of you have the RS4 I won't get into my personal experience but I tend to favor tighter more manueverable vehicles and this was really the lightweight (though not by performance) of the group.
As far as straightline performance the M5 was the beast, no surprise there but the E63 and CLS63 would also edge out the RS4. If you look at the power and torque of these new engines it's easy to see why. The E63's power comes on more linear than the past E55 as I expected it to be. Like they always say, there is no replacement for displacement. Though the CLS63 is slightly heavier than the E63 the rear end gear ratio of the CLS is slightly higher making the straight-line acceleration difference between the two Benz's barely noticeable. Most of our group agreed on this. We also were impressed on how these big Benz's can handle the weight shift when we put the cars through their places, both Benz's had very good control for their size with little understeer or oversteer -- the RS4 still exceeded anything the Benz's could muster but the performance gap was not as great as one would hope.
We all liked the BMW 550 but with a few options the price bumped you into the bracket of the RS4 or the S6 and nobody in the group would choose the BMW 550 over the S6, the S6 offered so much more for almost the same money. The 550 is really there to be the poor-mans M5 and the car to compete against the M-B E500 (now the E550) as the gap between the BMW 550 and BMW 530 are significant when it comes to the performance aspect of things.
I could go on an on but I rambled enough here. I wish I could talk about the 2 Caddys but I can't, in the future I probably will though. Of course a few of us were asking where the early production M3 was but we just got smiles. One guy said even if it were available it would have to be a 4-door to be part of the critique.
Let me not that all of these cars were post-break-in period.
I hope you enjoyed the read, again please don't mistake this post as a "performance shoot out" that's not what this particular study was about . . . and as you probably can guess they rarely allow cameras and as of the past 2 years you have to check your cell phones in the private airport hanger (now due to the camera phones).
Cheers,
Alex
10-04-2006, 11:08 AM
#4
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having driven all cars mentioned except the S6, and owning two of them, same findings here.
RS4 is more fun to drive around town but the M5 is simply unbeatable by any 4-door sedan on the open road.
10-05-2006, 08:39 AM
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So, bang for the buck...still favors RS4 it would appear
As all others from BMW and MB are over 100k...
Looks like Jeremy Clarkson was right, the RS4 is quite a deal. Maybe the S6 too.
MO
Looks like Jeremy Clarkson was right, the RS4 is quite a deal. Maybe the S6 too.
MO
10-05-2006, 10:17 AM
#6
That's all well and good, but.....
why do people compare the RS4 to a different class of car. The Benzs' and Bimmers are a larger class of luxury performance sedan. The RS4 is based on a compact sedan in line with the Merc C class and BMW 3-series.
10-05-2006, 12:55 PM
#7
AudiWorld Super User
why not compare them? we're not allowed to?
Things don't have to be cut and dry with regards to EPA size class, price, etc. If you look at performance and what actual buyers will use these cars for, the price differential becomes less of an issue and comparing them is natural.
1) Performance between the RS4 and the larger luxo monster sedans with regards to straight line and handling are certainly comparable. Hell, several people who have bought RS4's were also looking at Carrera 4S which is even more far fetched than comparing it to an E63 AMG yet people who buy these cars present themselves with such dilemmas.
2) People who look at the RS4 and other larger similarly performing sedans are generally looking for a fast uber sedan that will likely be used as a daily driver and more often than not will not be concerned about rear leg room and cargo space. The size class these cars fall into are likely less the deciding factor than say, a person who ends up choosing an RS4 over an M5 simply beacause the M5 is not available with a 6-speed manual at the moment. At least that's my opinion and my line line of thinking when I was shopping for such cars.
3) Just because the RS4 is based on a more compact platform like the A4, doesn't mean most everything else about it doesn't compare to the midsize beasts from other makes (M5, E63, E55, etc). An Exige/Elise for example is much much smaller than a Vetter Z06 or Porsche GT3, much cheaper (esp when compared to the porsche), has far less creature comforts, is much lighter, has a more diminutive powerplant, yet you'll notice that people interested commonly cross-shop these same exact cars back to back. It's more about purpose than size or price category once you get into more specialized cars like these.
4) Why am I on my 4th point when I'm not even sure if the first 3 made any sense? =) ok time to get some lunch, can feel my blood sugar getting low....
1) Performance between the RS4 and the larger luxo monster sedans with regards to straight line and handling are certainly comparable. Hell, several people who have bought RS4's were also looking at Carrera 4S which is even more far fetched than comparing it to an E63 AMG yet people who buy these cars present themselves with such dilemmas.
2) People who look at the RS4 and other larger similarly performing sedans are generally looking for a fast uber sedan that will likely be used as a daily driver and more often than not will not be concerned about rear leg room and cargo space. The size class these cars fall into are likely less the deciding factor than say, a person who ends up choosing an RS4 over an M5 simply beacause the M5 is not available with a 6-speed manual at the moment. At least that's my opinion and my line line of thinking when I was shopping for such cars.
3) Just because the RS4 is based on a more compact platform like the A4, doesn't mean most everything else about it doesn't compare to the midsize beasts from other makes (M5, E63, E55, etc). An Exige/Elise for example is much much smaller than a Vetter Z06 or Porsche GT3, much cheaper (esp when compared to the porsche), has far less creature comforts, is much lighter, has a more diminutive powerplant, yet you'll notice that people interested commonly cross-shop these same exact cars back to back. It's more about purpose than size or price category once you get into more specialized cars like these.
4) Why am I on my 4th point when I'm not even sure if the first 3 made any sense? =) ok time to get some lunch, can feel my blood sugar getting low....
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10-06-2006, 05:53 AM
#8
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The entire market for performance sedans above $59K is smaller than you think
We have a stack of data to support this. More often that not it's more difficult steering a potential customer away from their brand (e.g., brand loyalty) than putting them in or have them think about driving home in a slightly larger or smaller vehicle than what they are currently driving (a grade 1 jump up or grade 1 step down -- the difference between the RS4 and a S6 or E63). An S class Mercedes or a BMW 7 series is a different target market of course.
Speaking of the S Class, Mercedes will start to put their 0-60 stats directly on their factory dealer stickers (primarily on their AMG models), this will initiate with their current S600 which has a 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds.
Speaking of the S Class, Mercedes will start to put their 0-60 stats directly on their factory dealer stickers (primarily on their AMG models), this will initiate with their current S600 which has a 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds.
10-06-2006, 07:46 AM
#9
AudiWorld Super User
Nice review, but I don't understand your weight comment.
Doesn't the S6 weigh 4486 lbs. and the S8 only weighs 4277 lbs.
"The broad range of the torque in the V10 of the S6 is nothing short of joyous, it just keeps pulling and pulling, the HP from what I recall is only 15 less than the S8 but with significant weight savings from the A8 platform."
"The broad range of the torque in the V10 of the S6 is nothing short of joyous, it just keeps pulling and pulling, the HP from what I recall is only 15 less than the S8 but with significant weight savings from the A8 platform."
10-06-2006, 12:43 PM
#10
You are allowed to compare anything........
But that doesn't make it a valid comparison. While people shopping for an M5 may also consider an RS4, or a Porsche or Z06 Vette for that matter, that still doesn't make them the same class of car.
All I am saying is don't be so surprised that an M5 or E63 AMG will blow away the RS4. I would expect them to. If that is what is most important, and you have the financial means and desire, buy one those cars. I would be more curious to know why Audi designers didn't put 500 hp into the S6.
All I am saying is don't be so surprised that an M5 or E63 AMG will blow away the RS4. I would expect them to. If that is what is most important, and you have the financial means and desire, buy one those cars. I would be more curious to know why Audi designers didn't put 500 hp into the S6.