Piggy Piggy Oink Oink Pulls out the Win! Audi RS4 vs BMW M3 vs Cadillac CTS-V vs Fuga
12-14-2006, 08:55 AM
#21
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Come on Leo be reasonable. If the RS4 would have had the inside line in the first turn ...
It would have been game over from there and would have finished with a lot more than the 2.565 second lead over the M3.
The 2.565 seconds lead by the end of the fifth and final lap was achieved in less than two laps! The M3 was passed some where on the third lap.
Take a look at their respective best laps and the RS4 (1' 08".368) is almost 0 .9 of a second a lap faster than the M3 (1' 09".261). That my friend in racing is an eternity!
Yes the RS4 understeers (although less than other Audis) when pushed that hard and yes the M3's handling is perhaps the more fun of the two to drive but you cannot say in this case it is more effective.
When you consider that the RS4 is any where from 400 to perhaps 600 pounds heavier than the M3, the horse power advantage on paper the RS4 as over the M3 are not that big of a deal on the track. What kills in racing is weight and that's a big disadvantage the RS4 as to deal with not only in accelerating and decelerating but going through the turns too (but a smart man like you knows that). You can tell the RS4 driver went into a few corners too fast and the car understeered on him. However the Quattro certainly helped him in several occasions too, especially when he went wide or when he was on the outside line into a turn. It is also apparent that the BMW M3 driver had to work harder to try to keep up and that the car needed some attention while accelerating out of the turns because it oversteered. A lot of steering wheel inputs had to be done to correct the car's trajectory and keep it under control.
Another point I would like to take up with you is that the BMW people like to point out (as you did) that the E46 is 7 years older than the RS4. Well you and I know better (and I know others do too). Correct me if I'm wrong but the E46 chassis on which the M3 is built came out in 1999. On the other hand the chassis the RS4 (B6/B7) is built on is the same as the original B6 A4 that came out in 2001. So the 7 year gap is not so, but closer to a 2 year gap which essentially makes both cars of the same era using similar technologies.
Perhaps the new M3 will be better and faster than the current RS4 but that would be comparing apples to oranges. When the new M3 comes out you will have to wait until the next generation RS4 comes out on what will be the B8 platform. If rumours are true and the EX-BMW engineers (from the chassis and suspension department) now working at Audi get it right the B8 based cars should be closer to a 50/50 weight distribution, understeer less but will retain Quattro. Then we will see who will be able to have the bragging rights to "King of the Hill".
The 2.565 seconds lead by the end of the fifth and final lap was achieved in less than two laps! The M3 was passed some where on the third lap.
Take a look at their respective best laps and the RS4 (1' 08".368) is almost 0 .9 of a second a lap faster than the M3 (1' 09".261). That my friend in racing is an eternity!
Yes the RS4 understeers (although less than other Audis) when pushed that hard and yes the M3's handling is perhaps the more fun of the two to drive but you cannot say in this case it is more effective.
When you consider that the RS4 is any where from 400 to perhaps 600 pounds heavier than the M3, the horse power advantage on paper the RS4 as over the M3 are not that big of a deal on the track. What kills in racing is weight and that's a big disadvantage the RS4 as to deal with not only in accelerating and decelerating but going through the turns too (but a smart man like you knows that). You can tell the RS4 driver went into a few corners too fast and the car understeered on him. However the Quattro certainly helped him in several occasions too, especially when he went wide or when he was on the outside line into a turn. It is also apparent that the BMW M3 driver had to work harder to try to keep up and that the car needed some attention while accelerating out of the turns because it oversteered. A lot of steering wheel inputs had to be done to correct the car's trajectory and keep it under control.
Another point I would like to take up with you is that the BMW people like to point out (as you did) that the E46 is 7 years older than the RS4. Well you and I know better (and I know others do too). Correct me if I'm wrong but the E46 chassis on which the M3 is built came out in 1999. On the other hand the chassis the RS4 (B6/B7) is built on is the same as the original B6 A4 that came out in 2001. So the 7 year gap is not so, but closer to a 2 year gap which essentially makes both cars of the same era using similar technologies.
Perhaps the new M3 will be better and faster than the current RS4 but that would be comparing apples to oranges. When the new M3 comes out you will have to wait until the next generation RS4 comes out on what will be the B8 platform. If rumours are true and the EX-BMW engineers (from the chassis and suspension department) now working at Audi get it right the B8 based cars should be closer to a 50/50 weight distribution, understeer less but will retain Quattro. Then we will see who will be able to have the bragging rights to "King of the Hill".
12-14-2006, 09:03 AM
#23
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Jet, I wouldn't even argue with him. Just look at his absurd stmt above^^^...
that say it all.
The man suffers from denial(in M3/RS4 comparison) to an extent that I haven't often seen...even on the internet.
Than there was the Audi TT casket comment.
It'll all be okay in the end though...just another year or so left for the new M3 to creep out of its incubator.
The man suffers from denial(in M3/RS4 comparison) to an extent that I haven't often seen...even on the internet.
Than there was the Audi TT casket comment.
It'll all be okay in the end though...just another year or so left for the new M3 to creep out of its incubator.
12-14-2006, 09:04 AM
#24
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Sorry, but I think you missed the point...
The RS4 is nearly 0.9 of a second of a lap faster than the M3.
The RS4 pulls out a lead of 2.565 seconds over the M3 in less than two laps, that's an average of over a second a lap. Ferrari, BMW, MB and Renault would kill and actually spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to achieve this in F1.
Given all its handicaps the RS4 is the better car on that day on that track with those drivers, period.
The RS4 pulls out a lead of 2.565 seconds over the M3 in less than two laps, that's an average of over a second a lap. Ferrari, BMW, MB and Renault would kill and actually spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to achieve this in F1.
Given all its handicaps the RS4 is the better car on that day on that track with those drivers, period.
12-14-2006, 09:11 AM
#25
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So why did it take so long to overtake? That's the point.
My first impression was that RS4san was toying with M3san.
Leo's comment suggested that the M3 was holding its own, but that M3san was overdriving the car, so he let RS4san by.
Once he did, building a gap was more work for RS4san than you would expect.
I guess my original point was that the RS4 elected to overtake late in the race, and that this was a no-contest sort of thing.
But my read of Leo's comment was that RS4san passed as soon as he was able.
After reconsidering the events in light of Leo's comment, I was inclined to agree that there was far less toying going on than there was hard work on both drivers' parts.
That was unexpected.
Your comments about weight illuminate the key ingredient in understanding why it SHOULD be expected.
Leo's comment suggested that the M3 was holding its own, but that M3san was overdriving the car, so he let RS4san by.
Once he did, building a gap was more work for RS4san than you would expect.
I guess my original point was that the RS4 elected to overtake late in the race, and that this was a no-contest sort of thing.
But my read of Leo's comment was that RS4san passed as soon as he was able.
After reconsidering the events in light of Leo's comment, I was inclined to agree that there was far less toying going on than there was hard work on both drivers' parts.
That was unexpected.
Your comments about weight illuminate the key ingredient in understanding why it SHOULD be expected.
12-14-2006, 09:13 AM
#26
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Whifff? Nice one, LOL...
let me undumb you.
It was your stmt that implied that the M3 driver was sloppy, not mine. Now you're totally backing off that.
I don't know about you, or what you were looking at, but the last couple laps is where the RS4 built a large lead. If that's not pulling away to the rate that you woud expect(whatever that means), then I suggest you look again.
I WAS puzzled by the fact that the RS4 seemed to hang back for much of the race, and unnecessarily so, it appeared. The idea of the RS4 driver toying with the M3 mentioned here by someone else does appear to have some merit, when you view the video and see the M3 working hard in the corners, drifting out of corners, and trying to gain advantage in the straights.
The RS4 never looks like it's working hard, and when it decides to put the move on the slower M3, it does so with ease...and never looks back.
It was your stmt that implied that the M3 driver was sloppy, not mine. Now you're totally backing off that.
I don't know about you, or what you were looking at, but the last couple laps is where the RS4 built a large lead. If that's not pulling away to the rate that you woud expect(whatever that means), then I suggest you look again.
I WAS puzzled by the fact that the RS4 seemed to hang back for much of the race, and unnecessarily so, it appeared. The idea of the RS4 driver toying with the M3 mentioned here by someone else does appear to have some merit, when you view the video and see the M3 working hard in the corners, drifting out of corners, and trying to gain advantage in the straights.
The RS4 never looks like it's working hard, and when it decides to put the move on the slower M3, it does so with ease...and never looks back.
12-14-2006, 09:23 AM
#27
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Open mouth; insert foot
I am not backing off my statement that the M3 driver was sloppy. I am AMPLIFYING IT.
The comment with merit made by "someone else" about "toying with the M3" WAS ME.
My Spidey-sense is starting to tingle with the idea that Leo might just have had his tongue stuck firmly into his cheek when he suggested that the M3 driver let the RS4 by... hehe.
On the one hand, I do believe I have taken the bait, hook-line-and-sinker.
On the other hand, the transition between the toying stage and the lead-building stage definitely shows the M3 putting up a bigger fight than one would expect. If I had to settle on one comment to sum up my position, that's it.
The comment with merit made by "someone else" about "toying with the M3" WAS ME.
My Spidey-sense is starting to tingle with the idea that Leo might just have had his tongue stuck firmly into his cheek when he suggested that the M3 driver let the RS4 by... hehe.
On the one hand, I do believe I have taken the bait, hook-line-and-sinker.
On the other hand, the transition between the toying stage and the lead-building stage definitely shows the M3 putting up a bigger fight than one would expect. If I had to settle on one comment to sum up my position, that's it.
12-14-2006, 09:31 AM
#28
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How does it taste??? Don't be insulting just becasue you blew it...
oh it WAS YOU! Hey, hey, everybody, it WAS ME says abwc. LMAOAY!
Try saying what you mean instead of misinterperting what other are saying here. You're getting obnoxious.
Try saying what you mean instead of misinterperting what other are saying here. You're getting obnoxious.
12-14-2006, 09:35 AM
#29
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Over taking or passing on a track is...
<b>A lot harder</b> then you think. Ever watch F1 racing when the Ferraris or the Renaults are faster at lapping then the other on a particular track and somehow can't get by. Well that's because the guy ahead is defending his position by taking the safe line through the turns/corners. Ever see Michael follow Alonso for 10 to 15 laps and not being able to pass him? Then you have the elastic or rubber band phenomenon in which the car that's ahead hits the brakes first, sets up his turn and accelerates first out of the corner. Spectators think the guy in the back is catching up but in fact he is not.
If you look at the start carefully, the RS4 beats the M3 to the first corner but as to slow down a lot more because he's on the outside and the M3 is on the inside with the proper or better line into that corner. If the RS4 driver would have slip the two cars and stayed in the middle of the track while launching, it would have been game over for the M3 and I suspect it would have been a 4 second lead by the end of the race (perhaps more).
As for the smoothness of the drivers, we don't know who they are and how skilled they are. Is one really better then the other one? If so by how much? However, could it be the RS4 is that much easier to drive at 10/10ths then the M3 is? Could it be that the overall package of the RS4 makes its drivers more confident to push it and make fewer mistakes?
In the end the RS4 was 0.9 seconds faster a lap, which like I said before is a lot. It also finished 2.565 seconds ahead of the M3 in less then 2 laps. You cannot argue those numbers.
If you look at the start carefully, the RS4 beats the M3 to the first corner but as to slow down a lot more because he's on the outside and the M3 is on the inside with the proper or better line into that corner. If the RS4 driver would have slip the two cars and stayed in the middle of the track while launching, it would have been game over for the M3 and I suspect it would have been a 4 second lead by the end of the race (perhaps more).
As for the smoothness of the drivers, we don't know who they are and how skilled they are. Is one really better then the other one? If so by how much? However, could it be the RS4 is that much easier to drive at 10/10ths then the M3 is? Could it be that the overall package of the RS4 makes its drivers more confident to push it and make fewer mistakes?
In the end the RS4 was 0.9 seconds faster a lap, which like I said before is a lot. It also finished 2.565 seconds ahead of the M3 in less then 2 laps. You cannot argue those numbers.