Piggy Piggy Oink Oink Pulls out the Win! Audi RS4 vs BMW M3 vs Cadillac CTS-V vs Fuga
12-14-2006, 10:42 AM
#32
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...something with which I am very familiar
Look at the start even more carefully: RS4 leaps off the line, but by the time they get 2/3rd down the straight (still full throttle, no braking zone yet), they are much closer than this leap off the start would suggest they should be. Why is that ? I don't know the answer, but I think it is significant. (we can't rule out the possibility that this was by design, to make the video interesting; hence the toying)
To support your point about start strategy for the RS4, I would venture to guess that if the RS4 had gotten the hole shot in turn one, the gap at the end would have been defintely more than the 4 seconds you suggest.
The comparison of smootheness of the drivers in the cockpit is difficult to assess, I agree. Quattro vs. RWD is enough to explain this difference by itself.
But based on the observation that the M3 driver's smoothness worsens after the pass tells me that he begins to overdrive the car after the pass. And, while he is able to keep the RS4 in sight for a short time, I suspect that his tires begin to overheat, and that's when the gap really starts to widen.
As for comparing driveability at 10 tenths between then M3 and the RS4, this is the single biggest reason I have not yet sold my M3 CS.
I love both of these cars, but each for different reasons.
The M3 KILLS the RS4 when it comes to precision, but the RS4 KILLS the M3 when it comes to the pleasures of power, sound, and comfort.
The M3 is like an F16 fighter jet, while the RS4 is like a Boeing 777.
The fighter jet has plenty of power, but cuts through its medium like a razor, translating pilot input into action as if it were truly a mechanical extension of the flesh. Balancing this car on the limit is like ballet.
The jumbo jet has TONS of power and is very comfortable, but the extension of the flesh bit is more like an artificial limb-- admittedly, one which you get really good at, provides tons of pleasure, and with which you can compete at a very high level, but it's never quite as high-fidelity an experience as having real flesh with sensation. Balancing this car on-the-limit is like square dancing.
But on-the-edge performance is not the only purpose with these machines. I have fallen in love with the RS4 for many other reasons. For example, when I get in the M3 now the M3's engine sounds like someone throwing a drum set down the stairs (not my line; I read that in a magazine article some years ago).
The RS4 NAV is much better, but the HVAC is not as good;
the brakes are good, but the M3 CS's are stronger, more precise, and less prone to fade;
the M3's seats are MUCH better, but you don't have four doors;
I have harnesses in the M3, but you just can't put quick-fits in the RS4 (yet; HMS motorsport said last week "don't hold your breath");
I prefer SMG for on-the-limit driving and left-foot braking, but I prefer the RS4's transmission for everything else (this is not a stick vs. SMG comment; I prefer the RS4 transmission to the M3's stick version, too);
the RS4 has RUINED my perception of the M3 as a powerful machine; by comparison, it is just plain gutless... but then there is that precision thing...
Where throttle precision, braking precision, steering precision, and seating position are concerned, the RS4 simply does not hold a candle to the M3 CS.
But where the majority of everything else is concerned, the M3 CS does not hold a candle to the RS4.
In a weird sort of way, the video that started all of this is allegorical to my own M3 vs RS4 experience.
M3 starts in front, RS4 jumps off the line, M3 holds its own, RS4 stays in touch. RS4 attacks, M3 defends mightily, RS4 attacks some more and breaks through, M3 fights back, hangs on for dear life in every way it knows how, but RS4 just keeps getting away.
I can't say one is better than the other overall; they are different tools for different trades.
Let's see what happens in '07...
To support your point about start strategy for the RS4, I would venture to guess that if the RS4 had gotten the hole shot in turn one, the gap at the end would have been defintely more than the 4 seconds you suggest.
The comparison of smootheness of the drivers in the cockpit is difficult to assess, I agree. Quattro vs. RWD is enough to explain this difference by itself.
But based on the observation that the M3 driver's smoothness worsens after the pass tells me that he begins to overdrive the car after the pass. And, while he is able to keep the RS4 in sight for a short time, I suspect that his tires begin to overheat, and that's when the gap really starts to widen.
As for comparing driveability at 10 tenths between then M3 and the RS4, this is the single biggest reason I have not yet sold my M3 CS.
I love both of these cars, but each for different reasons.
The M3 KILLS the RS4 when it comes to precision, but the RS4 KILLS the M3 when it comes to the pleasures of power, sound, and comfort.
The M3 is like an F16 fighter jet, while the RS4 is like a Boeing 777.
The fighter jet has plenty of power, but cuts through its medium like a razor, translating pilot input into action as if it were truly a mechanical extension of the flesh. Balancing this car on the limit is like ballet.
The jumbo jet has TONS of power and is very comfortable, but the extension of the flesh bit is more like an artificial limb-- admittedly, one which you get really good at, provides tons of pleasure, and with which you can compete at a very high level, but it's never quite as high-fidelity an experience as having real flesh with sensation. Balancing this car on-the-limit is like square dancing.
But on-the-edge performance is not the only purpose with these machines. I have fallen in love with the RS4 for many other reasons. For example, when I get in the M3 now the M3's engine sounds like someone throwing a drum set down the stairs (not my line; I read that in a magazine article some years ago).
The RS4 NAV is much better, but the HVAC is not as good;
the brakes are good, but the M3 CS's are stronger, more precise, and less prone to fade;
the M3's seats are MUCH better, but you don't have four doors;
I have harnesses in the M3, but you just can't put quick-fits in the RS4 (yet; HMS motorsport said last week "don't hold your breath");
I prefer SMG for on-the-limit driving and left-foot braking, but I prefer the RS4's transmission for everything else (this is not a stick vs. SMG comment; I prefer the RS4 transmission to the M3's stick version, too);
the RS4 has RUINED my perception of the M3 as a powerful machine; by comparison, it is just plain gutless... but then there is that precision thing...
Where throttle precision, braking precision, steering precision, and seating position are concerned, the RS4 simply does not hold a candle to the M3 CS.
But where the majority of everything else is concerned, the M3 CS does not hold a candle to the RS4.
In a weird sort of way, the video that started all of this is allegorical to my own M3 vs RS4 experience.
M3 starts in front, RS4 jumps off the line, M3 holds its own, RS4 stays in touch. RS4 attacks, M3 defends mightily, RS4 attacks some more and breaks through, M3 fights back, hangs on for dear life in every way it knows how, but RS4 just keeps getting away.
I can't say one is better than the other overall; they are different tools for different trades.
Let's see what happens in '07...
12-14-2006, 10:48 AM
#33
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Re: ...something with which I am very familiar
<<The M3 is like an F16 fighter jet, while the RS4 is like a Boeing 777.>>
Boy, that's going to go over well here.
How old are you? Awfully long-winded too. Get a grip! You're rambling now in a weak attempt to CYA.
Boy, that's going to go over well here.
How old are you? Awfully long-winded too. Get a grip! You're rambling now in a weak attempt to CYA.
12-14-2006, 10:52 AM
#34
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Don't get me wrong and I agree with you both these cars are amazing and are in a way...
Totally different yet fight for the same kind of driver in the same market. It's just that both car companies approach the solution in different ways.
As for the new M3, it will surely be better than both but like I said I would not compare the present day RS4 to the new M3. To be fair the new M3 will have to wait for the new RS4 in the form of the B8 platform.
As for the new M3, it will surely be better than both but like I said I would not compare the present day RS4 to the new M3. To be fair the new M3 will have to wait for the new RS4 in the form of the B8 platform.
12-14-2006, 11:09 AM
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Funny, I was going to ask you the same thing.
> How old are you?
I was thinking of asking you the same thing. I decided against it.
>> The M3 is like an F16 fighter jet, while the RS4 is like a Boeing 777.
> Boy, that's going to go over well here.
Sure, if you take the comment out of context like that. You need to read the words surrounding that statement, dave; they establish a context for the use of hyperbole to compare & contrast the two elements, none of which is negative.
I have not sought to incite a flame war here. This is discussion, debate, whatever, which is usually enriched by diverse points of view.
> Boy, that's going to go over well here.
I read this as: "don't say anything that runs counter to those of us who don't want to hear anything except what we want to hear"
There are very few things that "don't go over well here". Rational discussion is not one of them.
> Awfully long-winded too.
Not the first time I've heard that.
Perhaps you might support your position by pointing out the unnecessary bits ?
I was thinking of asking you the same thing. I decided against it.
>> The M3 is like an F16 fighter jet, while the RS4 is like a Boeing 777.
> Boy, that's going to go over well here.
Sure, if you take the comment out of context like that. You need to read the words surrounding that statement, dave; they establish a context for the use of hyperbole to compare & contrast the two elements, none of which is negative.
I have not sought to incite a flame war here. This is discussion, debate, whatever, which is usually enriched by diverse points of view.
> Boy, that's going to go over well here.
I read this as: "don't say anything that runs counter to those of us who don't want to hear anything except what we want to hear"
There are very few things that "don't go over well here". Rational discussion is not one of them.
> Awfully long-winded too.
Not the first time I've heard that.
Perhaps you might support your position by pointing out the unnecessary bits ?
12-14-2006, 11:18 AM
#36
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And therein lies the genius of these manufacturers...
Absolutely brilliant of these two companies to create a competing product that absolutely vexes the consumer.
Can you imagine what would happen if they both tried to create the better example of the same beast ?
One would win and the other would lose.
But by approaching the problem with a solution that doesn't really overlap, they both guarantee success.
It is precisely because of these two cars that I have really begun to appreciate the thinking that goes into everything BESIDES the machines.
These companies are as much about crafting exquisite machines as they are about stimulating emotions. Emotions are stirred not only by the machines themselves, but also by the companies' styles and identities, which are themselves just plain different.
Can you imagine what would happen if they both tried to create the better example of the same beast ?
One would win and the other would lose.
But by approaching the problem with a solution that doesn't really overlap, they both guarantee success.
It is precisely because of these two cars that I have really begun to appreciate the thinking that goes into everything BESIDES the machines.
These companies are as much about crafting exquisite machines as they are about stimulating emotions. Emotions are stirred not only by the machines themselves, but also by the companies' styles and identities, which are themselves just plain different.
12-14-2006, 12:07 PM
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Re: And therein lies the genius of these manufacturers...
<<Absolutely brilliant of these two companies to create a competing product that absolutely vexes the consumer.>>
Where ya been the last decade or so?
Look, I'm going to cut you some slack here, alhough I don't quite know why I should.
First, when a person sarts off a discussion with someone with the comments "let me dumb it down for you" and "open mouth, insert foot", well, sorry, but expect some blowback.
Second, IMO, you're flip flopping in your posts. You seem to be trying to interpret(and attribute) other peoples words instead of just putting forth your own ideas in response.
So, an honest discussion, fine. Here goes:
I have always admired the BMW M3, and all BMW "M" models going back quite awhile now. One part of my family are diehard BMW owners, and we discuss the respective cars that we own, and their differences rationally, never like what I see here...where a handful of BMW owners have to continually come in and rip the RS4, even absurdly(not speaking specifically of you here...you don't have the history as some of the others).
The M3...why can't some of these thin skinned BMW owners simply admit that Audi has a strong product out in the RS4, and that it is not at all surprising that it outperforms the current M3, with it's smaller 6 cyl engine and admittedly aged design.
When the new one comes out I hope that RS4 owners will be more gracious(and honest) in their treatment of what will be a truly fine car. I certainly plan to. But at the moment, merely pointing out the facts where the two cars are concerned seems to be somehow "unfair" to some. And so goes their need to deny the facts and take cheap shots at Audi and the RS4, on a dedicated Audi forum, no less.
Where ya been the last decade or so?
Look, I'm going to cut you some slack here, alhough I don't quite know why I should.
First, when a person sarts off a discussion with someone with the comments "let me dumb it down for you" and "open mouth, insert foot", well, sorry, but expect some blowback.
Second, IMO, you're flip flopping in your posts. You seem to be trying to interpret(and attribute) other peoples words instead of just putting forth your own ideas in response.
So, an honest discussion, fine. Here goes:
I have always admired the BMW M3, and all BMW "M" models going back quite awhile now. One part of my family are diehard BMW owners, and we discuss the respective cars that we own, and their differences rationally, never like what I see here...where a handful of BMW owners have to continually come in and rip the RS4, even absurdly(not speaking specifically of you here...you don't have the history as some of the others).
The M3...why can't some of these thin skinned BMW owners simply admit that Audi has a strong product out in the RS4, and that it is not at all surprising that it outperforms the current M3, with it's smaller 6 cyl engine and admittedly aged design.
When the new one comes out I hope that RS4 owners will be more gracious(and honest) in their treatment of what will be a truly fine car. I certainly plan to. But at the moment, merely pointing out the facts where the two cars are concerned seems to be somehow "unfair" to some. And so goes their need to deny the facts and take cheap shots at Audi and the RS4, on a dedicated Audi forum, no less.
12-14-2006, 01:19 PM
#39
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OK
>> Absolutely brilliant of these two companies to create a competing product that absolutely vexes the consumer.
> Where ya been the last decade or so?
Right where I am now, except that the Audi Sport offerings have never challenged the M3 quite so thoroughly as they do now.
> Second, IMO, you're flip flopping in your posts. You seem to be trying to interpret(and attribute) other peoples words instead of just putting forth your own ideas in response.
Somehow I must have been misunderstood.
I initially said the RS4 was toying with the M3.
Then Leo said the M3 driver let him by. So, I went back to the video with that in mind and felt that there was at least some merit to Leo's idea, but I never meant to suggest that in so doing there was any concession made by the M3 driver. The further along we got in this thread, the more I realized Leo may have been baiting us. (The hand gestures made by the RS4 driver as he goes by are interesting; without being able to understand Japanese, it's hard to know what they meant. Perhaps it was "thanks" and perhaps is was "suckah!)
Nevertheless, there is definitely more of a battle in the middle, right after the RS4 overtakes, than I had originally remembered, so that's when I went on to say that the battle wasn't as much of a blowout as I would have expected.
I'm not sure what the "other people's words" you are referring to are.
> The M3...why can't some of these thin skinned BMW owners simply admit that Audi has a strong product out in the RS4, and that it is not at all surprising that it outperforms the current M3, with it's smaller 6 cyl engine and admittedly aged design.
This is exactly what I have been stressing throughout this thread !
I think you might have been a bit sensitive in your interpretation of my dissertation on M3 vs RS4. Although I said F16 vs Boeing 777, I also said I loved them both, and that the RS4 absolutely kills the M3 in several departments. On balance, I can't decide whether to sell one or keep them both.
My preference is usually for precision, but the RS4 is do damm good at so many things that it has motivated me to forego some of that precision in exchange for what the RS4 offers.
This is high praise for the RS4.
The tone of your responses during this thread has given me the impression that you've been upset that anyone would claim that the RS4 doesn't have every base covered over every other car out there, and that I had nerve sumthin-fierce to blaspheme that the M3 was "more precise" in one regard or another.
> But at the moment, merely pointing out the facts where the two cars are concerned seems to be somehow "unfair" to some.
I might suggest that you are describing yourself here.
Fact: the two cars have a horsepower difference.
Fact: the two cars have a precision difference.
There's no room for debate about the horsepower difference because the manufacturers publish a number that quantifies the difference.
But in the precision department we don't really have a simple figure to compare, so there's lots more room for the emotion of 'fairness' to creep into the discussion. My deep experience with both cars I think gives me the right to share my impression of this sort of comparison, and to consider the differences I feel between them to be factual.
Certainly, I don't think you can say that anything I have said was "unfair", although I surmise from your reaction to many of the things that I have said that you did.
I had hoped that you and the rest of the audience might infer from the detail and contrasting nature of (indeed, the "long-windedness" of) my descriptions not only that the RS4 is truly an awesome machine (uh, yes, we know this), but furthermore, that the RS4 is truly an awesome machine BECAUSE this person who values precision over everything else finds himself in the awkward position of considering selling the more handling-precise machine (whoa, that's a significant statement!).
> Where ya been the last decade or so?
Right where I am now, except that the Audi Sport offerings have never challenged the M3 quite so thoroughly as they do now.
> Second, IMO, you're flip flopping in your posts. You seem to be trying to interpret(and attribute) other peoples words instead of just putting forth your own ideas in response.
Somehow I must have been misunderstood.
I initially said the RS4 was toying with the M3.
Then Leo said the M3 driver let him by. So, I went back to the video with that in mind and felt that there was at least some merit to Leo's idea, but I never meant to suggest that in so doing there was any concession made by the M3 driver. The further along we got in this thread, the more I realized Leo may have been baiting us. (The hand gestures made by the RS4 driver as he goes by are interesting; without being able to understand Japanese, it's hard to know what they meant. Perhaps it was "thanks" and perhaps is was "suckah!)
Nevertheless, there is definitely more of a battle in the middle, right after the RS4 overtakes, than I had originally remembered, so that's when I went on to say that the battle wasn't as much of a blowout as I would have expected.
I'm not sure what the "other people's words" you are referring to are.
> The M3...why can't some of these thin skinned BMW owners simply admit that Audi has a strong product out in the RS4, and that it is not at all surprising that it outperforms the current M3, with it's smaller 6 cyl engine and admittedly aged design.
This is exactly what I have been stressing throughout this thread !
I think you might have been a bit sensitive in your interpretation of my dissertation on M3 vs RS4. Although I said F16 vs Boeing 777, I also said I loved them both, and that the RS4 absolutely kills the M3 in several departments. On balance, I can't decide whether to sell one or keep them both.
My preference is usually for precision, but the RS4 is do damm good at so many things that it has motivated me to forego some of that precision in exchange for what the RS4 offers.
This is high praise for the RS4.
The tone of your responses during this thread has given me the impression that you've been upset that anyone would claim that the RS4 doesn't have every base covered over every other car out there, and that I had nerve sumthin-fierce to blaspheme that the M3 was "more precise" in one regard or another.
> But at the moment, merely pointing out the facts where the two cars are concerned seems to be somehow "unfair" to some.
I might suggest that you are describing yourself here.
Fact: the two cars have a horsepower difference.
Fact: the two cars have a precision difference.
There's no room for debate about the horsepower difference because the manufacturers publish a number that quantifies the difference.
But in the precision department we don't really have a simple figure to compare, so there's lots more room for the emotion of 'fairness' to creep into the discussion. My deep experience with both cars I think gives me the right to share my impression of this sort of comparison, and to consider the differences I feel between them to be factual.
Certainly, I don't think you can say that anything I have said was "unfair", although I surmise from your reaction to many of the things that I have said that you did.
I had hoped that you and the rest of the audience might infer from the detail and contrasting nature of (indeed, the "long-windedness" of) my descriptions not only that the RS4 is truly an awesome machine (uh, yes, we know this), but furthermore, that the RS4 is truly an awesome machine BECAUSE this person who values precision over everything else finds himself in the awkward position of considering selling the more handling-precise machine (whoa, that's a significant statement!).
12-14-2006, 01:34 PM
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Re: OK
No kidding! Leo baiting. The guy thinks he's getting in clever little digs(at the car and AW members), but then when you slam dunk his ludicrous comments, he runs for cover. You could search the forum archives to find evidence of this.
F16 vs F15 is more like it...with the F15 being the larger(or heavier) and more powerful of the two...and it dominates the F16 in all categories. But a 777??!! You deserved that one, sorry.
No, I'm not upset, just happy to call BMW owners repeatedly coming here and diss'ng the RS4 every chance. Am I surprised? No. It just clearly demonstrates the, uhh, current anxiety level of some BMW owners who are sitting in an aged M3 and watching the RS4 gain a lot of exposure and praise out there. Does that mean I'm now ripping the M3? No. Mere facts...unavoidable facts. Those who don't like it can wait for the new M3 and possibly have it all over the Audi then. Who knows? But, I think the RS4 upps the ante so much, that it will be very close.
In the end, this is a discussion where personal opinions mix with the facts, to be sure. Just remember where you are...an Audi enthusiast forum. You're not going to be able to sell BMW as better here very often. And when you get insuting on top of that, well...
F16 vs F15 is more like it...with the F15 being the larger(or heavier) and more powerful of the two...and it dominates the F16 in all categories. But a 777??!! You deserved that one, sorry.
No, I'm not upset, just happy to call BMW owners repeatedly coming here and diss'ng the RS4 every chance. Am I surprised? No. It just clearly demonstrates the, uhh, current anxiety level of some BMW owners who are sitting in an aged M3 and watching the RS4 gain a lot of exposure and praise out there. Does that mean I'm now ripping the M3? No. Mere facts...unavoidable facts. Those who don't like it can wait for the new M3 and possibly have it all over the Audi then. Who knows? But, I think the RS4 upps the ante so much, that it will be very close.
In the end, this is a discussion where personal opinions mix with the facts, to be sure. Just remember where you are...an Audi enthusiast forum. You're not going to be able to sell BMW as better here very often. And when you get insuting on top of that, well...