For those who drive with the ESP off (i.e., illuminated and disengaged)
03-13-2007, 10:37 AM
#31
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Driving on the road about ~30mph one side of the road has snow or ice
and I can floor it and the side with the ice will spin until I let off the gas or I hit pavement again and it catches.
With the ESP off, I feel/hear(ABS pump) no interaction by any systems other than when I apply the brake.
Any idea what the % of difference between wheel speed where EDL would activate?
With the ESP off, I feel/hear(ABS pump) no interaction by any systems other than when I apply the brake.
Any idea what the % of difference between wheel speed where EDL would activate?
03-13-2007, 12:08 PM
#32
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OK I'm still confused somewhat as to when the ESP is OFF so let me see if I...
Understand your scenario.
OK what I understand is the following...
You're driving on a road and one side of the car let us say the right side is either on snow or ice. I assume the other side (left side) is on dry pavement and you are driving at ~ 30mph when you decide to floor it. Is this correct so far?
Is the ESP engaged, I mean it is ON all systems normal? Or is ESP OFF (light on)? If so is it just Stage 1 or both stages that are deactivated?
Then there is the next phrase that confuses me because I'm not sure if it is part of the previous scenario and I quote...
<b>With the ESP off, I feel/hear (ABS pump) no interaction by any systems other than when I apply the brake.</b>
Again how is the ESP deactivated? Were you acceleration here in this scenario or just applying the brake and you heard the ABS go on?
Sorry I just want to clarify the situation.
As for what the % is in wheel spin (differential between left and right) required to trigger EDL I'm not sure but it can't be very much. However if the wheels spin up at the same time, EDL will not engage.
OK what I understand is the following...
You're driving on a road and one side of the car let us say the right side is either on snow or ice. I assume the other side (left side) is on dry pavement and you are driving at ~ 30mph when you decide to floor it. Is this correct so far?
Is the ESP engaged, I mean it is ON all systems normal? Or is ESP OFF (light on)? If so is it just Stage 1 or both stages that are deactivated?
Then there is the next phrase that confuses me because I'm not sure if it is part of the previous scenario and I quote...
<b>With the ESP off, I feel/hear (ABS pump) no interaction by any systems other than when I apply the brake.</b>
Again how is the ESP deactivated? Were you acceleration here in this scenario or just applying the brake and you heard the ABS go on?
Sorry I just want to clarify the situation.
As for what the % is in wheel spin (differential between left and right) required to trigger EDL I'm not sure but it can't be very much. However if the wheels spin up at the same time, EDL will not engage.
03-13-2007, 12:50 PM
#33
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Ok
OK what I understand is the following...
You're driving on a road and one side of the car let us say the right side is either on snow or ice. I assume the other side (left side) is on dry pavement and you are driving at ~ 30mph when you decide to floor it. Is this correct so far?
<b>Yes</b>
Is the ESP engaged, I mean it is ON all systems normal? Or is ESP OFF (light on)? If so is it just Stage 1 or both stages that are deactivated?
<b>ESP Off - Light ON, S4 only single stage</b>
Then there is the next phrase that confuses me because I'm not sure if it is part of the previous scenario and I quote...
With the ESP off, I feel/hear (ABS pump) no interaction by any systems other than when I apply the brake.
<b>Let me try and re-word this. Should I feel the ABS pump kick in to activate the EDL? I have never felt any ABS system activate with ESP off (light on) under acceleration/wheel spin.</b>
Again how is the ESP deactivated? Were you acceleration here in this scenario or just applying the brake and you heard the ABS go on?
Sorry I just want to clarify the situation.
As for what the % is in wheel spin (differential between left and right) required to trigger EDL I'm not sure but it can't be very much. However if the wheels spin up at the same time, EDL will not engage.
You're driving on a road and one side of the car let us say the right side is either on snow or ice. I assume the other side (left side) is on dry pavement and you are driving at ~ 30mph when you decide to floor it. Is this correct so far?
<b>Yes</b>
Is the ESP engaged, I mean it is ON all systems normal? Or is ESP OFF (light on)? If so is it just Stage 1 or both stages that are deactivated?
<b>ESP Off - Light ON, S4 only single stage</b>
Then there is the next phrase that confuses me because I'm not sure if it is part of the previous scenario and I quote...
With the ESP off, I feel/hear (ABS pump) no interaction by any systems other than when I apply the brake.
<b>Let me try and re-word this. Should I feel the ABS pump kick in to activate the EDL? I have never felt any ABS system activate with ESP off (light on) under acceleration/wheel spin.</b>
Again how is the ESP deactivated? Were you acceleration here in this scenario or just applying the brake and you heard the ABS go on?
Sorry I just want to clarify the situation.
As for what the % is in wheel spin (differential between left and right) required to trigger EDL I'm not sure but it can't be very much. However if the wheels spin up at the same time, EDL will not engage.
03-13-2007, 05:15 PM
#34
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OK here we go...
Just to clarify this point. EDL can never be turned "OFF" manually regardless of ESP switch position. The only way you as a driver can fully deactivate EDL is by pulling the ABS fuse and this of course will disable all the systems.
Now the computer that manages all the systems (ESP) as in its program certain algorithms (parameters) that will disable EDL.
The first and easiest one for us to remember is the 50 mph limit (on Quattro cars).
Another one is the brake overheating program. From what I know there is no brake overheat sensor on the car, it's in the way the system is programmed that mimics an overheat situation.
Finally and this is only speculation on my part, I believe the computer knows when not to activate the EDL depending on how fast the gas pedal is being applied.
Let's keep in mind as long as the sensors don't pick up a deferential in wheel spin the EDL will not activate. So if you dump the clutch on an icy road with the ESP in the "OFF" position, chances are that you will get the four wheels to spin all at once. You can even do it on dry pavement if you dare. Basically that's how you can do donuts. The only thing I'm not sure about is why the EDL doesn't activate on the initial launch. You're below 50 mph and you still get wheel spin. It is either because the wheels spun up at the same time or it could be the computer knows you've dumped the clutch at high RPM and it says to the ABS/EDL don't bother this time the wheels are going to exceed 50 mph real fast. This would perhaps fall into the brake overheating program.
In your scenario, you are already travelling ~30 mph and you decide to floor it with two wheels on one side on ice, the computer looks at all the parameters and sees the ESP is disabled so you won't get the ASR portion, the steering wheel angle sensor portion and you won't get the yaw sensor portion. So it is down to EDL and Quattro. I feel now that the computer says, I'm already at 30 mph and the guy just floored me, maybe I'll keep the EDL out of this too. Maybe the computer applied the EDL but in such a way that you did not feel it coming on and that now those wheels are spinning faster than 50 mph it cuts it off. Without knowing exactly how Audi designed and programmed the ESP we will never know. I have asked Audi techs to explain it to me and even they didn't know. Perhaps it is a guarded secret between the ESP manufacturer and Audi. The owner's manual sure doesn't tell you a lot.
In any case, if you were to do the same thing with two onside wheels on ice but you started from a dead stop and went easy on the gas pedal you would feel and perhaps even hear the ABS/EDL work on your car trying to transfer torque from side to side. Another way to see and hear it work is if you high centre the car in a snow bank and the wheels have little traction you will definitely hear and see the system at work. If you keep rocking the car back and forth to try to get out of the snow bank and you hear the EDL working, well after a short time it will disable itself because the algorithms in its program will prevent the brakes from overheating.
It is said that even if 3 out of the 4 wheels are on ice and are spinning the one with the grip should get the car going because of EDL.
I hope that sums it up for you.
Now the computer that manages all the systems (ESP) as in its program certain algorithms (parameters) that will disable EDL.
The first and easiest one for us to remember is the 50 mph limit (on Quattro cars).
Another one is the brake overheating program. From what I know there is no brake overheat sensor on the car, it's in the way the system is programmed that mimics an overheat situation.
Finally and this is only speculation on my part, I believe the computer knows when not to activate the EDL depending on how fast the gas pedal is being applied.
Let's keep in mind as long as the sensors don't pick up a deferential in wheel spin the EDL will not activate. So if you dump the clutch on an icy road with the ESP in the "OFF" position, chances are that you will get the four wheels to spin all at once. You can even do it on dry pavement if you dare. Basically that's how you can do donuts. The only thing I'm not sure about is why the EDL doesn't activate on the initial launch. You're below 50 mph and you still get wheel spin. It is either because the wheels spun up at the same time or it could be the computer knows you've dumped the clutch at high RPM and it says to the ABS/EDL don't bother this time the wheels are going to exceed 50 mph real fast. This would perhaps fall into the brake overheating program.
In your scenario, you are already travelling ~30 mph and you decide to floor it with two wheels on one side on ice, the computer looks at all the parameters and sees the ESP is disabled so you won't get the ASR portion, the steering wheel angle sensor portion and you won't get the yaw sensor portion. So it is down to EDL and Quattro. I feel now that the computer says, I'm already at 30 mph and the guy just floored me, maybe I'll keep the EDL out of this too. Maybe the computer applied the EDL but in such a way that you did not feel it coming on and that now those wheels are spinning faster than 50 mph it cuts it off. Without knowing exactly how Audi designed and programmed the ESP we will never know. I have asked Audi techs to explain it to me and even they didn't know. Perhaps it is a guarded secret between the ESP manufacturer and Audi. The owner's manual sure doesn't tell you a lot.
In any case, if you were to do the same thing with two onside wheels on ice but you started from a dead stop and went easy on the gas pedal you would feel and perhaps even hear the ABS/EDL work on your car trying to transfer torque from side to side. Another way to see and hear it work is if you high centre the car in a snow bank and the wheels have little traction you will definitely hear and see the system at work. If you keep rocking the car back and forth to try to get out of the snow bank and you hear the EDL working, well after a short time it will disable itself because the algorithms in its program will prevent the brakes from overheating.
It is said that even if 3 out of the 4 wheels are on ice and are spinning the one with the grip should get the car going because of EDL.
I hope that sums it up for you.
03-13-2007, 06:43 PM
#35
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Yes, thank you.
I guess some more research is required to find the exact difference in speed between the left and right side that will activate it.
And you are probably right that when I was already traveling 30mph, I probably spun the wheels up faster than 50mph easily.
I guess what really bothers me is that I've driven in snow/ice conditions with plenty of traction issues and I've never heard or felt it engage. Maybe it's quiet enough that it can be hard to hear. Or maybe I should turn the radio down
And you are probably right that when I was already traveling 30mph, I probably spun the wheels up faster than 50mph easily.
I guess what really bothers me is that I've driven in snow/ice conditions with plenty of traction issues and I've never heard or felt it engage. Maybe it's quiet enough that it can be hard to hear. Or maybe I should turn the radio down
05-19-2010, 11:32 AM
#36
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Just to clarify this point. EDL can never be turned "OFF" manually regardless of ESP switch position. The only way you as a driver can fully deactivate EDL is by pulling the ABS fuse and this of course will disable all the systems.
Now the computer that manages all the systems (ESP) as in its program certain algorithms (parameters) that will disable EDL.
The first and easiest one for us to remember is the 50 mph limit (on Quattro cars).
Another one is the brake overheating program. From what I know there is no brake overheat sensor on the car, it's in the way the system is programmed that mimics an overheat situation.
Finally and this is only speculation on my part, I believe the computer knows when not to activate the EDL depending on how fast the gas pedal is being applied.
Let's keep in mind as long as the sensors don't pick up a deferential in wheel spin the EDL will not activate. So if you dump the clutch on an icy road with the ESP in the "OFF" position, chances are that you will get the four wheels to spin all at once. You can even do it on dry pavement if you dare. Basically that's how you can do donuts. The only thing I'm not sure about is why the EDL doesn't activate on the initial launch. You're below 50 mph and you still get wheel spin. It is either because the wheels spun up at the same time or it could be the computer knows you've dumped the clutch at high RPM and it says to the ABS/EDL don't bother this time the wheels are going to exceed 50 mph real fast. This would perhaps fall into the brake overheating program.
In your scenario, you are already travelling ~30 mph and you decide to floor it with two wheels on one side on ice, the computer looks at all the parameters and sees the ESP is disabled so you won't get the ASR portion, the steering wheel angle sensor portion and you won't get the yaw sensor portion. So it is down to EDL and Quattro. I feel now that the computer says, I'm already at 30 mph and the guy just floored me, maybe I'll keep the EDL out of this too. Maybe the computer applied the EDL but in such a way that you did not feel it coming on and that now those wheels are spinning faster than 50 mph it cuts it off. Without knowing exactly how Audi designed and programmed the ESP we will never know. I have asked Audi techs to explain it to me and even they didn't know. Perhaps it is a guarded secret between the ESP manufacturer and Audi. The owner's manual sure doesn't tell you a lot.
In any case, if you were to do the same thing with two onside wheels on ice but you started from a dead stop and went easy on the gas pedal you would feel and perhaps even hear the ABS/EDL work on your car trying to transfer torque from side to side. Another way to see and hear it work is if you high centre the car in a snow bank and the wheels have little traction you will definitely hear and see the system at work. If you keep rocking the car back and forth to try to get out of the snow bank and you hear the EDL working, well after a short time it will disable itself because the algorithms in its program will prevent the brakes from overheating.
It is said that even if 3 out of the 4 wheels are on ice and are spinning the one with the grip should get the car going because of EDL.
I hope that sums it up for you.
Now the computer that manages all the systems (ESP) as in its program certain algorithms (parameters) that will disable EDL.
The first and easiest one for us to remember is the 50 mph limit (on Quattro cars).
Another one is the brake overheating program. From what I know there is no brake overheat sensor on the car, it's in the way the system is programmed that mimics an overheat situation.
Finally and this is only speculation on my part, I believe the computer knows when not to activate the EDL depending on how fast the gas pedal is being applied.
Let's keep in mind as long as the sensors don't pick up a deferential in wheel spin the EDL will not activate. So if you dump the clutch on an icy road with the ESP in the "OFF" position, chances are that you will get the four wheels to spin all at once. You can even do it on dry pavement if you dare. Basically that's how you can do donuts. The only thing I'm not sure about is why the EDL doesn't activate on the initial launch. You're below 50 mph and you still get wheel spin. It is either because the wheels spun up at the same time or it could be the computer knows you've dumped the clutch at high RPM and it says to the ABS/EDL don't bother this time the wheels are going to exceed 50 mph real fast. This would perhaps fall into the brake overheating program.
In your scenario, you are already travelling ~30 mph and you decide to floor it with two wheels on one side on ice, the computer looks at all the parameters and sees the ESP is disabled so you won't get the ASR portion, the steering wheel angle sensor portion and you won't get the yaw sensor portion. So it is down to EDL and Quattro. I feel now that the computer says, I'm already at 30 mph and the guy just floored me, maybe I'll keep the EDL out of this too. Maybe the computer applied the EDL but in such a way that you did not feel it coming on and that now those wheels are spinning faster than 50 mph it cuts it off. Without knowing exactly how Audi designed and programmed the ESP we will never know. I have asked Audi techs to explain it to me and even they didn't know. Perhaps it is a guarded secret between the ESP manufacturer and Audi. The owner's manual sure doesn't tell you a lot.
In any case, if you were to do the same thing with two onside wheels on ice but you started from a dead stop and went easy on the gas pedal you would feel and perhaps even hear the ABS/EDL work on your car trying to transfer torque from side to side. Another way to see and hear it work is if you high centre the car in a snow bank and the wheels have little traction you will definitely hear and see the system at work. If you keep rocking the car back and forth to try to get out of the snow bank and you hear the EDL working, well after a short time it will disable itself because the algorithms in its program will prevent the brakes from overheating.
It is said that even if 3 out of the 4 wheels are on ice and are spinning the one with the grip should get the car going because of EDL.
I hope that sums it up for you.
I am about to track my car for the 4th time and plan to try it with ESP disabled. I understand it should eliminate the annoying throttle cut on corner exits. What I am not clear on is how ABS and EBD will effect handling. If I understand correctly, with ESP off they will prevent single wheel lockup under braking, but they will not apply braking to an individual wheel in a corner to minimize yaw.
In other words, with the ESP off:
-ASR is off so I can control power out of corners.
-Yaw control is off so I can rotate the car at will. More fun for me but greater risk of spinning.
-Control under braking remains the same as with ESP on.
If I am right so far and EBD remains active with ESP off, then what is EBD doing? I thought ABS controlled individual wheel lock anyway and EBD was just for yaw control.
(I have a B6 if that makes any difference).
Last edited by Songer; 05-19-2010 at 08:06 PM.
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