MTM's DP/CAT and Milltek's DP/CAT...
06-22-2004, 08:44 AM
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MTM's DP/CAT and Milltek's DP/CAT...
This was written up on another forum because of talk going back and worth on some DP/Cat combo throwing codes and CELs on the B6 A4 with 1.8Ts.
Of course you know I'm a big MTM fan so I decided to do some research on the matter. It is also interesting for the S4 crowd because some of you are using the Milltek system. In no way am I trying to pit both exhausts against each other. I beleive Milltek makes one of the finest exhaust out there. Good reading.
As posted on another forum...
More info on the MTM exhaust and Milltek exhaust...
In my eternal quest in getting the right information out there for people to read and learn, I took it upon myself to contact both <b>Milltek</b> and <b>HJS Motorsport</b>. For those who don't know HJS Motorsport and MTM cooperated together in designing and testing the cat for MTM's DP/CAT for the Stage 3 kit. I am also posting a close up picture of the <b>MTM/JHS</b> cat. On that picture you will see the part number of the MTM cat. Furthermore HJS send me a catalogue of their high performance/ street legal cats. Some of these cats are for specific models, like the Lancer from Mitsubishi, Opel, Honda and Nissan. Other cats are designed as "universal" cats and go on how big the engine displacement is for that car. I don't know how complete that catalogue is, whether they have others available or not but I can tell you Audi or MTM is not listed in there. So this leads me to believe that the cat used on the MTM kit is perhaps designed for MTM for the 1.8T application as you will see in their answer.
I asked several questions to Milltek in my e mail, of which one was
"Are your cats and exhaust systems TUV approved?"
The answers from both companies may surprise some of you.
Here are the answers to those questions, Milltek first...
"Hi
Straightforward questions deserve straightforward answers :-
- All Milltek systems are designed , tested and manufactured in the UK ..
- Milltek use <b>HJS</b> metallic substrates(manufactured in Germany) in the vast majority of it's Hi-Flow catalysts .
- Milltek has product partnership development programs with a number of European Tuners , these products are not sold under the Milltek brand ..
- Milltek products <b>sold into North America are not TUV tested</b> , systems sold exclusively into the Central European markets will generally be TUV approved."
Regards
Phil Millington
Milltek Sport
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now here is what HJS answered me...
Hi Mike,
we offer two different typs of catalysts to our clients, you can differ them on the embossed <b>mark HJS Tuning and HJS Motorsport.</b>
The <b>HJS tuning</b> catalysts have a <b>200 cell matrix</b> with a special high performance coating on it ( platin / rhodium) which can recommend to use for all street cars with OBD controll. The foil thickness is 0,08 mm, the complete part is made of stainless stell(1,4828).
The <b>HJS motorsport</b> catalysts have a <b>100 cell matrix</b> with the same coating than the tuning one, the back pressure is lower, the foil thickness amounts to 0,11 mm although made of stainless steel. The motorsport catalysts are developed for the high performance cars in the World Rallye championship and all Europian car manufactors uses HJS parts for their racing and rallye cars.
HJS catalysts use matrixes with an <b>S/M winding</b> in contrast to all other manufacturer, they use the old central winding of the foil. <b>The S/M winding warranted a 3 to 4 times better duriability, particulary by high exhaust gas temperatures.</b>
Attached please find our delivery programme with some more information.
If you have further questions do not hesitate to contact me.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Klaus Osterhaus
Leiter Motorsport & Tuning
HJS Fahrzeugtechnik GmbH & Co KG
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now the picture of the MTM/HLS cat...
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/46874/mtmstg3-11.jpg">
To sum it all up, the cat used by Milltek is most likely an HJS design but is not TUV tested or approved and uses a 200 cell matix.
The MTM/HJS design on the other hand is from the "Motorsport series" which means it uses a 100 cell matix with superior quality inner materials and creates even less back pressure. It is most likely designed specifically for MTM and with the MTM Stage 3 kit in mind, best of all it is TUV tested and approved. <b>No wonder it is so expensive</b>.
Of course you know I'm a big MTM fan so I decided to do some research on the matter. It is also interesting for the S4 crowd because some of you are using the Milltek system. In no way am I trying to pit both exhausts against each other. I beleive Milltek makes one of the finest exhaust out there. Good reading.
As posted on another forum...
More info on the MTM exhaust and Milltek exhaust...
In my eternal quest in getting the right information out there for people to read and learn, I took it upon myself to contact both <b>Milltek</b> and <b>HJS Motorsport</b>. For those who don't know HJS Motorsport and MTM cooperated together in designing and testing the cat for MTM's DP/CAT for the Stage 3 kit. I am also posting a close up picture of the <b>MTM/JHS</b> cat. On that picture you will see the part number of the MTM cat. Furthermore HJS send me a catalogue of their high performance/ street legal cats. Some of these cats are for specific models, like the Lancer from Mitsubishi, Opel, Honda and Nissan. Other cats are designed as "universal" cats and go on how big the engine displacement is for that car. I don't know how complete that catalogue is, whether they have others available or not but I can tell you Audi or MTM is not listed in there. So this leads me to believe that the cat used on the MTM kit is perhaps designed for MTM for the 1.8T application as you will see in their answer.
I asked several questions to Milltek in my e mail, of which one was
"Are your cats and exhaust systems TUV approved?"
The answers from both companies may surprise some of you.
Here are the answers to those questions, Milltek first...
"Hi
Straightforward questions deserve straightforward answers :-
- All Milltek systems are designed , tested and manufactured in the UK ..
- Milltek use <b>HJS</b> metallic substrates(manufactured in Germany) in the vast majority of it's Hi-Flow catalysts .
- Milltek has product partnership development programs with a number of European Tuners , these products are not sold under the Milltek brand ..
- Milltek products <b>sold into North America are not TUV tested</b> , systems sold exclusively into the Central European markets will generally be TUV approved."
Regards
Phil Millington
Milltek Sport
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now here is what HJS answered me...
Hi Mike,
we offer two different typs of catalysts to our clients, you can differ them on the embossed <b>mark HJS Tuning and HJS Motorsport.</b>
The <b>HJS tuning</b> catalysts have a <b>200 cell matrix</b> with a special high performance coating on it ( platin / rhodium) which can recommend to use for all street cars with OBD controll. The foil thickness is 0,08 mm, the complete part is made of stainless stell(1,4828).
The <b>HJS motorsport</b> catalysts have a <b>100 cell matrix</b> with the same coating than the tuning one, the back pressure is lower, the foil thickness amounts to 0,11 mm although made of stainless steel. The motorsport catalysts are developed for the high performance cars in the World Rallye championship and all Europian car manufactors uses HJS parts for their racing and rallye cars.
HJS catalysts use matrixes with an <b>S/M winding</b> in contrast to all other manufacturer, they use the old central winding of the foil. <b>The S/M winding warranted a 3 to 4 times better duriability, particulary by high exhaust gas temperatures.</b>
Attached please find our delivery programme with some more information.
If you have further questions do not hesitate to contact me.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Klaus Osterhaus
Leiter Motorsport & Tuning
HJS Fahrzeugtechnik GmbH & Co KG
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now the picture of the MTM/HLS cat...
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/46874/mtmstg3-11.jpg">
To sum it all up, the cat used by Milltek is most likely an HJS design but is not TUV tested or approved and uses a 200 cell matix.
The MTM/HJS design on the other hand is from the "Motorsport series" which means it uses a 100 cell matix with superior quality inner materials and creates even less back pressure. It is most likely designed specifically for MTM and with the MTM Stage 3 kit in mind, best of all it is TUV tested and approved. <b>No wonder it is so expensive</b>.
06-22-2004, 09:40 AM
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Interesting. Mark at ASP said he spoke to the guys at Milltek about their design and that they....
were aware of the difference, but were not concerned about it since it's generally not something you can ID unless you take the system apart. Mark's decision to go with the 400 cell was a deliberate one (despite the decreased flow) in order to meet the US standards. Please note I may not be doing this justice, as I did/do not understand much of this. I'll try to confirm with Mark.
06-22-2004, 10:24 AM
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I heard the same from Mark. He said that the Milltek's were sport cats, and were known to blow on..
occasion. That's why I was nervous about Jon's setup. He seems to be doing just fine, with the exception of the minor installation mishap. But, I'm not sure what PA's emission laws are, or if they even check at the yearly inspection. I know they do here in NC and in VA. they are rat bastards when it comes to emissions. We had to go and get antique license plates for some of the older cars just to be able to drive them on the road, and those plates are expensive as hell!
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06-22-2004, 10:31 AM
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I spoke with Bob over at Strat re: the downpipes a few months ago.
I was interested in purchasing a set, but went through my usual barrage of questions with him. He was very helpful.
Basically, he said that his cats (milltek downpipes) are 50-state legal. He also admitted that there have been a few cats sent back, but he attributes their failure to poor installation. He also said that if I was to have any problems with my cats that he would replace them immediately.
Still, while I think the guys are Strat are really cool, and I love their products, I didn't get the confidence in the product that I was hoping for. I love my milltek exhaust. I still think it's the best exhaust I've ever owned. But the cats and their design specs made me shy away from them. I'm not interested in some ASP cats. They are 400 cell vs 200 cell, and might not have the flow of the 200 cells, but they sure make me feel more confident about the emissions testing.
Basically, he said that his cats (milltek downpipes) are 50-state legal. He also admitted that there have been a few cats sent back, but he attributes their failure to poor installation. He also said that if I was to have any problems with my cats that he would replace them immediately.
Still, while I think the guys are Strat are really cool, and I love their products, I didn't get the confidence in the product that I was hoping for. I love my milltek exhaust. I still think it's the best exhaust I've ever owned. But the cats and their design specs made me shy away from them. I'm not interested in some ASP cats. They are 400 cell vs 200 cell, and might not have the flow of the 200 cells, but they sure make me feel more confident about the emissions testing.
06-22-2004, 10:43 AM
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I think that....
every company who makes high flow cats has issues with them. I dont know a company who hasnt. Miltek backs their product to the nth degree. I think that a lower flow cat besides not sounding as mean will also have less power gains. plus miltek was the only one out at the time.
06-22-2004, 10:56 AM
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:-D No need to get them in a bunch!
I'm on your side here. I'm just letting you know what Bob said to me. The very notion that they <i>could</i> fail was more then I needed to handle. That's not to say that the next person isn't perfect for this setup. I hope your happy with them!
Not trying to rain on your parade. I'm glad to hear that your happy with the Milltek full-back and I'm sure you'll prove fine when it comes time for testing. And, if anything should go wrong, I'm sure that Strat will be MORE than helpful in replacing them, as I'm sure they know we are ALL watching. ;-)
Seriously Jon, nobody's giving you a hard time. At least I'm not. Different strokes for different folks, you know? Same with me and the resonated. When I bought the Milltek, the resonated was all they had. Now they have the non-resonated. At first I was like, "dang, I didn't even get an option." But hey, that's the price you pay when your one of the pioneers, you know? look at our S4's for example. They are rolling off the lines with new trannies, new clutch designs, new exhaust, perhaps even new suspension pieces. Am I sorry that I bought my 04 before these changes? HELL NO! I love my baby. And you do too. Good for you. :-D
Not trying to rain on your parade. I'm glad to hear that your happy with the Milltek full-back and I'm sure you'll prove fine when it comes time for testing. And, if anything should go wrong, I'm sure that Strat will be MORE than helpful in replacing them, as I'm sure they know we are ALL watching. ;-)
Seriously Jon, nobody's giving you a hard time. At least I'm not. Different strokes for different folks, you know? Same with me and the resonated. When I bought the Milltek, the resonated was all they had. Now they have the non-resonated. At first I was like, "dang, I didn't even get an option." But hey, that's the price you pay when your one of the pioneers, you know? look at our S4's for example. They are rolling off the lines with new trannies, new clutch designs, new exhaust, perhaps even new suspension pieces. Am I sorry that I bought my 04 before these changes? HELL NO! I love my baby. And you do too. Good for you. :-D