OK, here we go, I will try to keep this simple and relatively short, bare with me, some...
07-20-2004, 08:29 PM
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OK, here we go, I will try to keep this simple and relatively short, bare with me, some...
Back ground info.
First in April I got a baseline dyno done to my car in a totally stock form, no mods what so ever. That day the outside air temperature was 57.4 degrees F which is 1.6 degrees cooler than the ISA standard of 59 F. The maximum Hp that day at the wheels was 125.699 SEA rated at 5266 RPM. Maximum boost was 10.84 psi at 2458 RPM.
Maximum torque was 154 ft/lb at 2332 RPM.
This means if you take Audi's rated numbers of 170 Hp and 166 ft/lb the drive train loss is the following;
125.7 / 170.0 (a drop of 44.3 Hp) = 26.1% loss.
154 /166 (a drop of 12 ft/lb) = 7.3% loss.
All things considered those are still very good numbers.
Fast forward to mid-June. MTM's Stage 3 gets installed and now the car starts to rock. MTM tells us to make sure the Lambda settings are within certain norms (which they are not)and check the timing under load (not done yet). To do this tweaking, we must use a VAG 1551 or 1552 and follow their instructions. Well I guess somewhere in the translation something got lost and we are still waiting for them to clear up the info, most likely this week after we run a few tests. I bring up this point to let you know the car is still not running at 100% according to MTM which may change the dyno results in the future. Also I notice that the clutch is slipping momentarily at around 3000 RPM under hard acceleration.
Fast forward to last weekend. I have a three day race weekend and the car is still not 100% but I get the OK from Germany to go to the competition with the car in its present state. Race all weekend with not even as much as a misfire, good news the car did pretty good for its first outing.
However, 2 minutes away from home, the car looses all or most of its boost pressure, ****. When I got home I VAGGED it and sure enough there was a code to do with boost regulation, now what? Another loose line, the N75 valve, what?
So today was the day I had already booked an appointment for the water mister pump installation and the dyno runs to test the custom made turbo inlet pipe. First thing we did was to change the N75 valve to one they had in stock. We also installed a boost gauge to read while driving. We went for a test drive, still no boost. Next step car goes up on the lift and we check all the lines. We find the line on the Forge by-pass valve to the blown off midway at a connector.
We replace the entire line (no ****ing around anymore)and go back on the road. Et voila power, power, power, how sweet. But wait what's this we see on the boost gauge. Over 25 psi, that can't be, WTF. Test the car in 3rd gear from 2000 RPM going uphill under full acceleration and we notice some clutch slipping.
Back to the shop we go and onto the dyno. By the time the car is ready to do its first run it as cooled down. So the first run won't count, we will do a couple of runs to get it warmed up. But again the boost goes through the roof, 28 psi! We decide to do a few runs with this set up to test the OEM intake pipe and the custom intake pipe, the results later. We show the results to the owner of the shop and says there is no way that valve should allow this kind of boost on a K04. So we test and check the valve and compare the results with mine, and sure enough they feel their valve is defective. So now we reinstall my original N75 valve on my car and do a second set of tests with the OEM and custom pipes.
Before the results, keep three things in mind;
1- The MTM Stage 3 is not tweaked yet so it may produce a little more power eventually.
2- My clutch is slipping at max boost/torque which may reduce somewhat the Hp and torque figures.
3- The outside air temperature today for the dyno runs was a whopping <b>27</b> degrees warmer and this will definitely produce lower Hp and torque figures. So in the end the numbers I'm about to give you are on the conservative side at best. L-Sport as requested from me not to publish the dyno results because of their R&D on the prototype pipe, but I can assure you that it is not in my interest to bull**** anyone here and I am quite astonished at the incredible gains from the MTM Stage 3. I personally did not think I would get such an increase. So far I'm very happy with the results and can only hope it will get better soon.
THE NUMBERS:
Running the <b>bad N75 valve</b> which ultimately ran more boost, around <b>28 psi</b> and produced more HP and torque we saw a gain of <b>8.7 Hp</b> and a gain of <b>5.5 ft/lb</B> over the stock inlet pipe.
With my original <b>N75 valve</b> the boost was around a maximum of <b>22 psi</b> and the gain was <b>5 Hp</b>.
This is explained by the fact that the bigger the kits and the more the power they produce the more gains you are going to get from custom piping.
More important than perhaps the peak Hp and torque is the <b>engine response</b> at various torque, Hp and boost for a given RPM.
The custom pipe produces more Hp, torque and boost at lower RPMs, meaning the engine is reacting faster.
Example #1
We dissected a point on the graph in one run, at <b>2334 RPM</b> the stock pipe produced <b>133.0 ft/lb</b> of torque.
Again at <b>2334 RPM</b>, this time with the custom pipe, the torque figure went up to <b>149.7 ft/lb</b> a gain of <b>16.7 ft/lb</b> at <b>2334 RPM</b>, not bad.
Example #2
This time lets see the Hp gain at <b>5938 RPM</b>.
Stock pipe produces <b>183.2 Hp</b> and the custom pipe produces <b>193.5 Hp</b> a gain of <b>10.3 Hp</b> at that same RPM.
Example #3
Now for the boost. Again the boost comes on earlier and tends to stay higher longer and drops off less towards the end of the run.
At <b>2351 RPM</b> the stock pipe is producing <b>12.94 psi</b>.
At <b>2200 RPM</b> the custom pipe is producing <b>13.03 psi</b>.
As you can see, nothing but positive numbers from the custom turbo inlet pipe.
Now as for the MTM numbers, I will give you only the ones which were produced with my original N75 valve. Until I check with MTM Germany on this N75 questions it would not be fair to show the numbers with a possibly faulty one. Also I've asked MTM to give me what kind of maximum boost psi I can expect with this kit.
MTM Stage 3 with stock pipe = <b>201.5 Hp</b> a gain of <b>75.8 Hp</b> at the wheels. Add approximately <b>5 Hp</b> with the custom pipe so <b>206.5 Hp</b>.
Torque is up to <b>239.8 ft/lb</b>, a gain of <b>85.8 ft/lb</b> at the wheels, again add approximately <b>5 ft/lb</b> with the custom pipe, so <b>244.8 ft/lb</b>.
BTW, these runs were done with 94 octane gasoline. If I can get a cooler day, say around 60 F then I will book a dyno run with 109 octane race gas in it.
If you are interested in a custom turbo inlet pipe, e mail me directly. At this time he will make me a new or modified version to work out some minor fitting issues (he's a perfectionist). the selling price is $450.00 CAN complete with the two big hoses on each end, that's about <b>$345.00 US</b> at today's exchange rate.
CONVERSION FACTORS:
Baseline:
125 whp / 170 bhp / correction factor = 1.36 or .735 or 26.5%
154 tq / 166 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7% /
Run 1: Stock N75 valve and modified TIP
201 whp / 273 bhp / correction factor = 1.36 or .735 or 26.5%
239 tq / 255 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
Run 2: Monaco N75 valve and stock TIP
205 whp / 278 bhp / correction factor = 1.36 or .735 or 26.5%
272 tq / 291 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
Run 3: Monaco N75 valve and modified TIP
208 whp / 282 bhp / correction factor = 1.36 or .735 or 26.5%
273 tq / 292 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
The above results were obtained in a duplicate fashion as those number obtained by the Thermal Race exhaust. That is to say that they arrive at a correction factor derived from the original dyno of the same vehicle on the same dyno measured in stock form.
The following is an interpretation of the results utilizing an even lower correction factor of 22%, which is widely held as a CONSERVATIVE correction factor for AWD dyno plots.
Run 1: Stock N75 valve and modified TIP
201 whp / 258 bhp / correction factor = 1.28 or .78 or 22%
239 tq / 255 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
Run 2: Monaco N75 valve and stock TIP
205 whp / 262 bhp / correction factor = 1.28 or .78 or 22%
272 tq / 291 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
Run 3: Monaco N75 valve and modified TIP
208 whp / 266 bhp / correction factor = 1.28 or .78 or 22%
273 tq / 292 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
Comparison of car when heatsoaked with Monaco N75 and stock TIP versus modified TIP
199 whp
208 whp
One last thing, I would like to thank Luc and his team at L-Sport for all the work done on my car and the R&d for the inlet pipe. Keep up the good work!
First in April I got a baseline dyno done to my car in a totally stock form, no mods what so ever. That day the outside air temperature was 57.4 degrees F which is 1.6 degrees cooler than the ISA standard of 59 F. The maximum Hp that day at the wheels was 125.699 SEA rated at 5266 RPM. Maximum boost was 10.84 psi at 2458 RPM.
Maximum torque was 154 ft/lb at 2332 RPM.
This means if you take Audi's rated numbers of 170 Hp and 166 ft/lb the drive train loss is the following;
125.7 / 170.0 (a drop of 44.3 Hp) = 26.1% loss.
154 /166 (a drop of 12 ft/lb) = 7.3% loss.
All things considered those are still very good numbers.
Fast forward to mid-June. MTM's Stage 3 gets installed and now the car starts to rock. MTM tells us to make sure the Lambda settings are within certain norms (which they are not)and check the timing under load (not done yet). To do this tweaking, we must use a VAG 1551 or 1552 and follow their instructions. Well I guess somewhere in the translation something got lost and we are still waiting for them to clear up the info, most likely this week after we run a few tests. I bring up this point to let you know the car is still not running at 100% according to MTM which may change the dyno results in the future. Also I notice that the clutch is slipping momentarily at around 3000 RPM under hard acceleration.
Fast forward to last weekend. I have a three day race weekend and the car is still not 100% but I get the OK from Germany to go to the competition with the car in its present state. Race all weekend with not even as much as a misfire, good news the car did pretty good for its first outing.
However, 2 minutes away from home, the car looses all or most of its boost pressure, ****. When I got home I VAGGED it and sure enough there was a code to do with boost regulation, now what? Another loose line, the N75 valve, what?
So today was the day I had already booked an appointment for the water mister pump installation and the dyno runs to test the custom made turbo inlet pipe. First thing we did was to change the N75 valve to one they had in stock. We also installed a boost gauge to read while driving. We went for a test drive, still no boost. Next step car goes up on the lift and we check all the lines. We find the line on the Forge by-pass valve to the blown off midway at a connector.
We replace the entire line (no ****ing around anymore)and go back on the road. Et voila power, power, power, how sweet. But wait what's this we see on the boost gauge. Over 25 psi, that can't be, WTF. Test the car in 3rd gear from 2000 RPM going uphill under full acceleration and we notice some clutch slipping.
Back to the shop we go and onto the dyno. By the time the car is ready to do its first run it as cooled down. So the first run won't count, we will do a couple of runs to get it warmed up. But again the boost goes through the roof, 28 psi! We decide to do a few runs with this set up to test the OEM intake pipe and the custom intake pipe, the results later. We show the results to the owner of the shop and says there is no way that valve should allow this kind of boost on a K04. So we test and check the valve and compare the results with mine, and sure enough they feel their valve is defective. So now we reinstall my original N75 valve on my car and do a second set of tests with the OEM and custom pipes.
Before the results, keep three things in mind;
1- The MTM Stage 3 is not tweaked yet so it may produce a little more power eventually.
2- My clutch is slipping at max boost/torque which may reduce somewhat the Hp and torque figures.
3- The outside air temperature today for the dyno runs was a whopping <b>27</b> degrees warmer and this will definitely produce lower Hp and torque figures. So in the end the numbers I'm about to give you are on the conservative side at best. L-Sport as requested from me not to publish the dyno results because of their R&D on the prototype pipe, but I can assure you that it is not in my interest to bull**** anyone here and I am quite astonished at the incredible gains from the MTM Stage 3. I personally did not think I would get such an increase. So far I'm very happy with the results and can only hope it will get better soon.
THE NUMBERS:
Running the <b>bad N75 valve</b> which ultimately ran more boost, around <b>28 psi</b> and produced more HP and torque we saw a gain of <b>8.7 Hp</b> and a gain of <b>5.5 ft/lb</B> over the stock inlet pipe.
With my original <b>N75 valve</b> the boost was around a maximum of <b>22 psi</b> and the gain was <b>5 Hp</b>.
This is explained by the fact that the bigger the kits and the more the power they produce the more gains you are going to get from custom piping.
More important than perhaps the peak Hp and torque is the <b>engine response</b> at various torque, Hp and boost for a given RPM.
The custom pipe produces more Hp, torque and boost at lower RPMs, meaning the engine is reacting faster.
Example #1
We dissected a point on the graph in one run, at <b>2334 RPM</b> the stock pipe produced <b>133.0 ft/lb</b> of torque.
Again at <b>2334 RPM</b>, this time with the custom pipe, the torque figure went up to <b>149.7 ft/lb</b> a gain of <b>16.7 ft/lb</b> at <b>2334 RPM</b>, not bad.
Example #2
This time lets see the Hp gain at <b>5938 RPM</b>.
Stock pipe produces <b>183.2 Hp</b> and the custom pipe produces <b>193.5 Hp</b> a gain of <b>10.3 Hp</b> at that same RPM.
Example #3
Now for the boost. Again the boost comes on earlier and tends to stay higher longer and drops off less towards the end of the run.
At <b>2351 RPM</b> the stock pipe is producing <b>12.94 psi</b>.
At <b>2200 RPM</b> the custom pipe is producing <b>13.03 psi</b>.
As you can see, nothing but positive numbers from the custom turbo inlet pipe.
Now as for the MTM numbers, I will give you only the ones which were produced with my original N75 valve. Until I check with MTM Germany on this N75 questions it would not be fair to show the numbers with a possibly faulty one. Also I've asked MTM to give me what kind of maximum boost psi I can expect with this kit.
MTM Stage 3 with stock pipe = <b>201.5 Hp</b> a gain of <b>75.8 Hp</b> at the wheels. Add approximately <b>5 Hp</b> with the custom pipe so <b>206.5 Hp</b>.
Torque is up to <b>239.8 ft/lb</b>, a gain of <b>85.8 ft/lb</b> at the wheels, again add approximately <b>5 ft/lb</b> with the custom pipe, so <b>244.8 ft/lb</b>.
BTW, these runs were done with 94 octane gasoline. If I can get a cooler day, say around 60 F then I will book a dyno run with 109 octane race gas in it.
If you are interested in a custom turbo inlet pipe, e mail me directly. At this time he will make me a new or modified version to work out some minor fitting issues (he's a perfectionist). the selling price is $450.00 CAN complete with the two big hoses on each end, that's about <b>$345.00 US</b> at today's exchange rate.
CONVERSION FACTORS:
Baseline:
125 whp / 170 bhp / correction factor = 1.36 or .735 or 26.5%
154 tq / 166 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7% /
Run 1: Stock N75 valve and modified TIP
201 whp / 273 bhp / correction factor = 1.36 or .735 or 26.5%
239 tq / 255 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
Run 2: Monaco N75 valve and stock TIP
205 whp / 278 bhp / correction factor = 1.36 or .735 or 26.5%
272 tq / 291 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
Run 3: Monaco N75 valve and modified TIP
208 whp / 282 bhp / correction factor = 1.36 or .735 or 26.5%
273 tq / 292 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
The above results were obtained in a duplicate fashion as those number obtained by the Thermal Race exhaust. That is to say that they arrive at a correction factor derived from the original dyno of the same vehicle on the same dyno measured in stock form.
The following is an interpretation of the results utilizing an even lower correction factor of 22%, which is widely held as a CONSERVATIVE correction factor for AWD dyno plots.
Run 1: Stock N75 valve and modified TIP
201 whp / 258 bhp / correction factor = 1.28 or .78 or 22%
239 tq / 255 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
Run 2: Monaco N75 valve and stock TIP
205 whp / 262 bhp / correction factor = 1.28 or .78 or 22%
272 tq / 291 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
Run 3: Monaco N75 valve and modified TIP
208 whp / 266 bhp / correction factor = 1.28 or .78 or 22%
273 tq / 292 tq / correction factor = 1.07 or .93 or 7%
Comparison of car when heatsoaked with Monaco N75 and stock TIP versus modified TIP
199 whp
208 whp
One last thing, I would like to thank Luc and his team at L-Sport for all the work done on my car and the R&d for the inlet pipe. Keep up the good work!
07-20-2004, 08:53 PM
#3
Innocent question, seriously
I've seen you post a bunch of stuff in this forum. It appears you're doing some interesting things w/your A4.
However, it's not all super relevant to this forum. In fact, very little of it is. Yes, it's an Audi, but that's about it. I could understand posting something like an interior mod that might be relevant, but this post?
Not that it's hard to skip over posts, I'm just wondering why you post here instead of the A4 forum. Won't they play?
However, it's not all super relevant to this forum. In fact, very little of it is. Yes, it's an Audi, but that's about it. I could understand posting something like an interior mod that might be relevant, but this post?
Not that it's hard to skip over posts, I'm just wondering why you post here instead of the A4 forum. Won't they play?
07-20-2004, 09:02 PM
#4
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Fair enough. I guess you are relatively new around here...
Well I'm always here because I like the B6 S4 forum. The guys here are, lets just say more
experienced. A lot of the B6 S4 owners are X-B5 S4 owners and had modded cars. So they do have lots of experience and I have learned from them. Since the B6 S4 came out a while after the A4 some of us B6 A4 owners knew a lot about the B6 in general that applied to the S4 as well. Some of the folks here like to see what I'm doing to the car.
Cheers.
experienced. A lot of the B6 S4 owners are X-B5 S4 owners and had modded cars. So they do have lots of experience and I have learned from them. Since the B6 S4 came out a while after the A4 some of us B6 A4 owners knew a lot about the B6 in general that applied to the S4 as well. Some of the folks here like to see what I'm doing to the car.
Cheers.
07-20-2004, 09:12 PM
#5
Who's new?
Not that it matters, but I've been 'round these boards since before AW started (lost a few screen names along the way). Still have a link to Jet's A4 pages in my favorites (guess I need to clean that out)
Not that it's relevant, however. It just comes down to the fact you're lowering the S/N because *you* want better feedback. At least you could acknowledge the fact in your post rather than assuming we all care about your dyno numbers.
Not that it's relevant, however. It just comes down to the fact you're lowering the S/N because *you* want better feedback. At least you could acknowledge the fact in your post rather than assuming we all care about your dyno numbers.
07-20-2004, 09:24 PM
#6
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Hey, cut him some slack, would ya?
It's quite fascinating to watch his car's transformation, and he certainly contributes a lot in "taking B6 apart" department... 
Besides, his posts would get drowned in A4 forum - talk about low S/N!
Besides, his posts would get drowned in A4 forum - talk about low S/N!
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07-21-2004, 05:19 AM
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Because some of us actually give a hoot and want to hear what he has to say.
I think it's awesome that's he's taking his A4 to the next step. He could go the "easy" route and by an S4. But the man enjoys modding his car, and frankly, I love hearing about it.
Keep it up Jet Jockey.
Keep it up Jet Jockey.