S4-2004, I think that throttle problem is *real*.
11-12-2003, 03:41 AM
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S4-2004, I think that throttle problem is *real*.
Little by little, more & more people are starting to see what I've beem talking about regarding unpredictable or unexpected throttle response.
In the beginning we all classified it as "refinedness" and some even theorized that the suspension was in fact *tuned* to dampen the feeling of acceleration in the name of refinement. While that may be partly true, I think that also a major fraction of us really *weren't* getting the full acceleration.
I do believe that this car has a bug in its DBW system. I think it's actually *true* that it's holding back - that our "butt dyno's" are correct, and while the car certainly is refined, it is also *not* giving us all the same whump as each other when we tell it to, or as on other times that we tell it to.
It's killing me that my clutch problem got in the way of diagnosing my throttle problem b/c I was all ready to start making short work of it.
I've asked my dealership to measure accelerator position vs. throttle position and track the variation and duration of delay. I don't think they'll actually do it, but it was the first step. If they don't, I'm going to get at vag-com and do it myself.
I think it will take several of us reproducing the problem with tangible statistics, but I do believe we'll be able to go to AoA with a large enough voice to say that it's not acceptable, and "ask" them to fix it. There are three angles to the argument:
1) different cars have widely different behavior, so in many cases the car we test drove doesn't behave the same as the one we bought
2) it is misleading to sell a car with a presumed performance capability, that doesn't always deliver it
3) it is flat-out dangerous to sell a high performance car, and have an engine in it that an experienced driver cannot accurately control it's power output
1 & 2 are enough that when threatend with going to the automotive press with our results, they might care. They will try to play the "production line variation" card, but that shouldn't fly with computer differences; mechanicals sure, but computers are supposed to be the same, so give me a computer that behaves the same as the next one, and be haves the same all the time.
#3 is the kicker though, especially in the cases like mine where we can demonstrate that not only is acceleration delayed, but so is *deceleration.* I'm sure we're all guessing that a team of Audi enthusiats including some IT professionals, carrying around conclusive proof that Audi is selling a car that speeds up when you lift the accelerator is the scariest thing that AoA could *possibly* imagine, and I suspect we would never even have to hint at it.
This could potentially backfire on us, because they could "fix" it the wrong way; they could put in a new throttle mapping that makes it behave consistently and predictably as a 280 hp engine. This would be difficult to prove, but if done, then we all would have strong arguments for wanting our $$ back.
The biggest fear I have is that AG is fully aware of this behavior, and (bad) doesn't consider it a problem, or (worse) *intended* it to be this way. More and more it's becoming acceptable to let cars think for us (ABS, ESP, traction control, etc), and I'm realy afraid Audi engineers have finally gotten arrogant enough to believe that we really aren't smart enough to know how much power we want.
Anyway, stick with it for a little while, I will need all the help I can get from you all to make my case bigger than "just me."
In the beginning we all classified it as "refinedness" and some even theorized that the suspension was in fact *tuned* to dampen the feeling of acceleration in the name of refinement. While that may be partly true, I think that also a major fraction of us really *weren't* getting the full acceleration.
I do believe that this car has a bug in its DBW system. I think it's actually *true* that it's holding back - that our "butt dyno's" are correct, and while the car certainly is refined, it is also *not* giving us all the same whump as each other when we tell it to, or as on other times that we tell it to.
It's killing me that my clutch problem got in the way of diagnosing my throttle problem b/c I was all ready to start making short work of it.
I've asked my dealership to measure accelerator position vs. throttle position and track the variation and duration of delay. I don't think they'll actually do it, but it was the first step. If they don't, I'm going to get at vag-com and do it myself.
I think it will take several of us reproducing the problem with tangible statistics, but I do believe we'll be able to go to AoA with a large enough voice to say that it's not acceptable, and "ask" them to fix it. There are three angles to the argument:
1) different cars have widely different behavior, so in many cases the car we test drove doesn't behave the same as the one we bought
2) it is misleading to sell a car with a presumed performance capability, that doesn't always deliver it
3) it is flat-out dangerous to sell a high performance car, and have an engine in it that an experienced driver cannot accurately control it's power output
1 & 2 are enough that when threatend with going to the automotive press with our results, they might care. They will try to play the "production line variation" card, but that shouldn't fly with computer differences; mechanicals sure, but computers are supposed to be the same, so give me a computer that behaves the same as the next one, and be haves the same all the time.
#3 is the kicker though, especially in the cases like mine where we can demonstrate that not only is acceleration delayed, but so is *deceleration.* I'm sure we're all guessing that a team of Audi enthusiats including some IT professionals, carrying around conclusive proof that Audi is selling a car that speeds up when you lift the accelerator is the scariest thing that AoA could *possibly* imagine, and I suspect we would never even have to hint at it.
This could potentially backfire on us, because they could "fix" it the wrong way; they could put in a new throttle mapping that makes it behave consistently and predictably as a 280 hp engine. This would be difficult to prove, but if done, then we all would have strong arguments for wanting our $$ back.
The biggest fear I have is that AG is fully aware of this behavior, and (bad) doesn't consider it a problem, or (worse) *intended* it to be this way. More and more it's becoming acceptable to let cars think for us (ABS, ESP, traction control, etc), and I'm realy afraid Audi engineers have finally gotten arrogant enough to believe that we really aren't smart enough to know how much power we want.
Anyway, stick with it for a little while, I will need all the help I can get from you all to make my case bigger than "just me."
11-12-2003, 04:18 AM
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The throttle response may be differnent, and it's taken a while to get used to it, but
it's hardly unpredictable.
The comments you're making are pretty rash, sweeping statements. So you think Audi has developed a 340 HP perfomrance sedan and then intentionally messed with it to make it unpredictable and perform at levels considerably less than advertised, and also dangerous?
Having never driven a car with "fly by wire" before but having driven manual transmissions for 35 years, I was a little surprised at how poor, relatively speaking, my shifting was initially, but I have adjusted to the new system. I admit that I still have to consciously think about it, and I also have only 900 miles on it so I haven't explored it's limits, but when I make a shift that's not as smooth as I like, I know why.
I've never been one to try to get what I want by threatening people, and there were some veiled threats in your commentary. Maybe you can prove it with additional testing, but I suspect the designers in Germany may have done a little testing themselves, so I'd be pretty sure I was right before going off the deep end.
The comments you're making are pretty rash, sweeping statements. So you think Audi has developed a 340 HP perfomrance sedan and then intentionally messed with it to make it unpredictable and perform at levels considerably less than advertised, and also dangerous?
Having never driven a car with "fly by wire" before but having driven manual transmissions for 35 years, I was a little surprised at how poor, relatively speaking, my shifting was initially, but I have adjusted to the new system. I admit that I still have to consciously think about it, and I also have only 900 miles on it so I haven't explored it's limits, but when I make a shift that's not as smooth as I like, I know why.
I've never been one to try to get what I want by threatening people, and there were some veiled threats in your commentary. Maybe you can prove it with additional testing, but I suspect the designers in Germany may have done a little testing themselves, so I'd be pretty sure I was right before going off the deep end.
11-12-2003, 04:29 AM
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I agree....
This car is almost like both have to adapt, the car adapts to you and you adapt to the car. While I dont have the same years of driving experience as many of the people on the board, I have driven my fair share of high performance cars and this one is the most mystifying when it comes to certain things. While the things that are put in because we are to 'stupid' to drive the car ( ESP, ABS ) drive me nuts, you have to adapt to them and their responses to your driving style. This can take 5 miles of 5000 miles. I can tell you the easiest high performance audi to adust to is the RS6. When I drove one I could predict its every movement. The S4 is alot harder and takes time an patience. While I see some of the things you describe Avram, some I do not. That leads me to believe it might be the fact that you are still not adjusted to the car.
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11-12-2003, 05:44 AM
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You are correct....it was the first tip....
That i didnt feel like I needed to tell the car what to do (aka paddles or shifter). I was out chasing after 911's w/ my sales guy in it. the car has 2k miles on it and I know they guy who owned it before he turned it in for the S4. And then before he turned his S4 in for a 911 turbo. hehehe the guy cant make up his mind. Its wicked fast and i didnt even each for a clutch in it. Which is what amazed me most. If i have a major issues with my car I have a feeling i will try and cut a buy back deal to get an RS6 (giving them money but paying invoice on the RS6... this is just a pipe dream thats in the back of my head). I thought I would not like a Tip car, but I would take an RS6 in a heart beat.