Better and better at smoothing DSG shifts...a user's guide
03-13-2012, 08:22 AM
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Better and better at smoothing DSG shifts...a user's guide
I have a Golf DSG that is smoooooothe which is the reason I went DSG over MT. But the S4 is jerky. On any shift. Mechanically clunky if in manual mode. Dissatisfying "slush-boxy" if you are in auto, etc.....
However, I'm learning to love my jerky DSG. Because I am learning how to get along well with it. Be fair: MT's were quite the challenge at first. If you put the DSG in manual mode and experiment, you can get shifts that are not only smoooooothe, but even moreso than with an MT because when you mesh things correctly torque is delivered even more continuously than with an MT.
There are key variables:
current gear
rate at which you are accelerating
how you time the manipulation of the accelerator to the shift
how quickly you lift/reapply the gas
This requires managing the accelerator similarly to the way you would in a MT, but the magnitude of lift/re-engagement is infinitely more subtle. It is more like "leaning" on/off than an MT's full lift/re-engagement. Timing between the shift and the gas is critical too. Faster acceleration requires tighter timing and less lift. Greater torque at shift requires a bigger change with the gas (but the off-on motion leaves little room for error). What will happen is that you will be able to avoid the mechanical "clunk " at shifts that are native to the DSG. You know you are getting it when your shifts evolve towards the MT's "head-bobbing" type of speed changes that occur when you don't quite coordinate gas/clutch movements.
It's challenging. And I'm still figuring it out several months in. And I gotta say, when you catch one just right, and your butt-dyno makes it feel like a CVT's constant power delivery it is way cool.
However, I'm learning to love my jerky DSG. Because I am learning how to get along well with it. Be fair: MT's were quite the challenge at first. If you put the DSG in manual mode and experiment, you can get shifts that are not only smoooooothe, but even moreso than with an MT because when you mesh things correctly torque is delivered even more continuously than with an MT.
There are key variables:
current gear
rate at which you are accelerating
how you time the manipulation of the accelerator to the shift
how quickly you lift/reapply the gas
This requires managing the accelerator similarly to the way you would in a MT, but the magnitude of lift/re-engagement is infinitely more subtle. It is more like "leaning" on/off than an MT's full lift/re-engagement. Timing between the shift and the gas is critical too. Faster acceleration requires tighter timing and less lift. Greater torque at shift requires a bigger change with the gas (but the off-on motion leaves little room for error). What will happen is that you will be able to avoid the mechanical "clunk " at shifts that are native to the DSG. You know you are getting it when your shifts evolve towards the MT's "head-bobbing" type of speed changes that occur when you don't quite coordinate gas/clutch movements.
It's challenging. And I'm still figuring it out several months in. And I gotta say, when you catch one just right, and your butt-dyno makes it feel like a CVT's constant power delivery it is way cool.
03-14-2012, 07:14 AM
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Good points and advice. I returned to the S4-fold after two M3s, one SMG and the other with DCT. I rate the S-tronic as falling between those two BMW transmissions.
First, I should note that I don't mind a harsher shift (up or down) at higher revs, esp redline -- that was in fact something enjoyable in the SMG II of the E46 M3. The only time that harshness was ever an issue was on a wet circuit, but the M-limited slip was good at catching that (well, maybe some passengers might also object to the jerkiness). With an S4, those jolts would be much less of an issue with tractive force spread over four wheels.
With the DCT in the E90, the shifts in S6 mode, which is only available after disabling stability control in M3, were much faster and slightly less brutal than the SMG.
The knocks on the S-tronic for me are 1) the occasional bucking downshift at low speeds that reminds me of learning to drive a manual a hundred years ago; and 2) the programming that will automatically upshift at red line even in manual instead of allowing you to sit at just below redline, and 3) the lag or latency between a manual shift input at the paddles and the transmission response.
As an automatic, I think the S-tronic is at least as good if not better than the DCT. The speed of the auto shifts for the S-tronic are impressive.
Some of these issues with the S-tronic can surely be improved by software, although the lag between input and shift may be a feature of the clutch engagement. The DCT had several updates that improved the performance of low speed shifting (early E9Xs had issues with the car stalling due to the DCT).
I also regret that Audi has the shift up/down on the shifter reversed. You should be able to downshift forward and up**** back. I'd like to be able to reverse that. And the paddles should be much bigger...
Before any flames are lit...I should add I enjoy the S4 tremendously. In my ideal world I'd love to have an M3/S4 meshed together to keep the best of both.
First, I should note that I don't mind a harsher shift (up or down) at higher revs, esp redline -- that was in fact something enjoyable in the SMG II of the E46 M3. The only time that harshness was ever an issue was on a wet circuit, but the M-limited slip was good at catching that (well, maybe some passengers might also object to the jerkiness). With an S4, those jolts would be much less of an issue with tractive force spread over four wheels.
With the DCT in the E90, the shifts in S6 mode, which is only available after disabling stability control in M3, were much faster and slightly less brutal than the SMG.
The knocks on the S-tronic for me are 1) the occasional bucking downshift at low speeds that reminds me of learning to drive a manual a hundred years ago; and 2) the programming that will automatically upshift at red line even in manual instead of allowing you to sit at just below redline, and 3) the lag or latency between a manual shift input at the paddles and the transmission response.
As an automatic, I think the S-tronic is at least as good if not better than the DCT. The speed of the auto shifts for the S-tronic are impressive.
Some of these issues with the S-tronic can surely be improved by software, although the lag between input and shift may be a feature of the clutch engagement. The DCT had several updates that improved the performance of low speed shifting (early E9Xs had issues with the car stalling due to the DCT).
I also regret that Audi has the shift up/down on the shifter reversed. You should be able to downshift forward and up**** back. I'd like to be able to reverse that. And the paddles should be much bigger...
Before any flames are lit...I should add I enjoy the S4 tremendously. In my ideal world I'd love to have an M3/S4 meshed together to keep the best of both.
03-14-2012, 07:08 PM
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1) the occasional bucking downshift at low speeds that reminds me of learning to drive a manual a hundred years ago; and 2) the programming that will automatically upshift at red line even in manual instead of allowing you to sit at just below redline, and 3) the lag or latency between a manual shift input at the paddles and the transmission response.
As for the latency, keep playing around. The greater is the rate of change in rev's the less is the latency. If you are accelerating slowly the response to the shifter is slower, and the management of the accelerator needs to be slower and more gentle. Under harder acceleration, things happen quicker. You need to be smooth but quick off and on the accelerator and learn to time things to the shifter response. Almost like you "fling" the car forward ever so slightly, shift during the "coast" as you lift off the gas and catch the car after engagement through gently but quickly back on the gas.
You need to listen to the engine and try to see the tach out of the corner of your eye while you try things. It is an intellectual and technical challenge and the more I succeed the greater is my enjoyment of driving the car. I liked the car to begin with. I am getting to where I'm loving it more than my 911 in terms of comfort and performance, and a major part of this is the smoothness I am getting with the transmission.
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03-15-2012, 04:06 AM
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Better yet, post a video clip of the behavior you're describing, because I find it very hard to believe that your car acts the way you're describing unless it's broken.
The DSG in my car (and I'd imagine almost everyone else's) rev-matches perfectly on paddle-initialted downshifts. I can't even feel the shift - the revs just rise up and then I'm in another gear.
03-17-2012, 08:28 AM
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That's why I'm spending so much energy on figuring out how to adjust my driving to the DSG.
Maybe I have a cruddy dealer?/???