Cheapo911

Hey everyone! First time poster here and was wondering if you could help me solve a battle I've been having with myself for the past 48 hours of whether or not I should get a S4.

So a little back story, for the past few months I've been researching very thoroughly the new 2016 Ford Focus RS. Up until 3 days ago, I was planning for my dealer back home to order me one and have it spring of 2016. Dealer came back to me a few days ago and said he's almost positive he wont be able to get a 2016. He says he should have no problem getting a 2017, but no one knows when that could be. So I started cross shopping again and came across a few 2013-2014 S4s.

I've looked into the S4 before when I was researching the RS, and it quickly left my mind after I ruled out how much more expensive maintenance would be and more than likely a quite less reliable platform (all assumptions I made). Now knowing that the earliest I can get a Focus RS will be late summer or early fall of 2016, I revisited the thought of the S4.


(real quick, for those who have not heard or dont know much about the Focus RS and may be wondering why I'm comparing it to the S4, I'm just going to quickly list off some specs so you get an idea of the car I'm comparing it to:
350 hp, 350 lb/ft from a 2.3L turbo
6 speed manual https://www.audiworld.com/forums/ima...or/menupop.gif
AWD (first ever Ford performance AWD, better than a haldex but not as good as quattro/Subaru's system more than likely)
5 door Hatch)
0-60 ~4.7
165mph top speed
Price: 41k MSRP (my config)



This morning I did a quick search of S4s in my area (Denver, so quite a few to chose from), found a dealership with 4 used 2013s and set up a test drive. The one I drove was a silver, sport diff, DSG car with the Audi smart key (or whatever its called) and the 10 speaker sound system. I didnt plan on buying this one, as I told the sales guy silver is not my color but just wanted to get a feel for the car. First impressions before driving it I had were that the interior was very nice, while the position of some buttons was a bit awkward. Loved the seats, the steering wheel felt great, and the paddles were nice. Now driving it, wow this thing moves. I've never owned a performance oriented vehicle and I loved how this thing just seems to pull and pull. Guess we can thank the low end torque for that. Transmission shifted crazy quick, and felt great when driving aggressively. In stop and go traffic, it was a little rough but I figure most duel clutch transmissions are that way. I didnt get a long enough drive to really get a feel for the handling or the different dampening settings but I had it in dynamic the entire time and I thought it rode great. Overall, loved the test drive.

After talking to the guy a bit he showed me the other S4s he had in stock and this is where it really got me. He showed me a one owner, clean carfax, Certified 2013 Audi S4 Premium Plus in Moonlight Blue Metallic . Loved the color, the way it shifted from a black to a dark dark blue depending on the viewing angle. That was really what drew me to it. Sport diff, the nice sound system, and the smart key. All the boxes I wanted so far, checked. This one is a manual (I'll come back to that below), which I think is fine, with about 30k in miles being sold for just a bit over 40k.

So why didnt I buy it on the spot? Well theres a few things scaring me from getting into the Audi world.
1. Maintenance costs.
Everyone has this fear right? Never owned a German car before, much less a supercharged one. I did some research and these are the numbers I came up with
Oil Change from independent shop: $70 (Dealer quoted me at 200-250!!!! For an oil change!)
Brakes: Dealer said $800 for rotors and pads, installed. Rears were $700
35k, 75, 115k service: $600 from dealer

How accurate do these numbers look? I saw elsewhere online someone was saying a brake job is far cheaper than $1500.

2. Reliability.
Once this thing is out of warranty, is it going to fall apart and cost an arm and a leg to rebuild? How long does the sport diff last? Ideally, I would like to own this car past 100k. I dont plan on tracking the car at this point and I baby my cars. Speaking of reliability, it brings me to the next point...

3. The manual VS DSG.
If I got the S4 in manual, it would be my first manual car ever. I've driven maybe 30 minutes each in 4 different manual transmission cars in my life, ranging from a BMW to a Jeep. I've had some experience and think I could get it down in a few weeks. I want to go the manual rote for the less expensive maintenance (saying I dont burn the clutch out in the first week) as I hear the DSG is the weak spot in these cars. If it is true I can get a more reliable, more affordable car to maintain then I will definitely go manual.

So what do you think? Are these things making me nevrious valid enough to point me back to the Focus RS?

Now you know what has been bouncing around in my head non stop for the past few days. Thanks in advance for any advice you guys can provide.

DrGP

First of all the s4 is a great car. I am now on my 3rd one and still can't find anything else in the price range that I like better or want more. But it is completely different than a Focus RS. Much more refined. My maintenance costs have been minimal. I would not recommend taking it to an Audi dealer for repairs or maintenance unless it was a warranty issue. And independent garage will do the work for a lot less money. Your dealer estimates for service look realistic. These cars have been really reliable. Some have had issues with the DSG trans but DSG is covered under warranty . I have had 3 6MT cars. IMHO, the clutch assembly could be stronger . If and when the clutch goes, it is not covered under warranty. I suggest you see if the car can be CPO'd which usually costs $2K. Or buy an extended warranty, which is what I did. Seeing that the Focus RS will not be available soon, have you consider a Subaru WRX STI? It would seem to be more similar to a Focus RS.

Cheapo911

I have considered a STI. Really cant get over how bad the interior is and the lack of features compared to the RS. That and its quite down on HP. I've compared the Focus RS to the Golf R and STI seriously and the RS ends up winning in my book by quite a bit. I'm interested in any other cross shopping ideas that I may have not thought of! I feel I've already gone crazy cross shopping everything under the sun, from Porsche Cayennes, Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8s, Porsche 911 4S, WRX, STI, Golf R, and a few others. In the end, I never had a solid reason not to go for the Focus RS. The S4 has been the biggest competitor for me so far. While I do see them as different, I also think they are quite similar. AWD, 330 ish hp cars with different drive modes, seating for 4.5, 6 speed manuals, and about the same interior space. I consider the S4 to trade performance for luxury compared to the RS.

jlarke

If you're cross-shopping with the Focus RS, have you considered the S3 at all? I don't know that you could find a used one but a new one might be close to your price range and would give you the factory warranty.

Cheapo911

Yup I did look at a S3 (I'll look at one again tonight, going to look at the S4 again). I thought it was a bit small, and the haldex was a turn off.

Drewalk

The Focus RS and the S4 are two different cars as already stated. The S4 is very refined and doesn't have much of a snarling exhaust tone as the V8 S4 and RS4 have (had). However, it depends on what you like (I drive a lot of miles daily and I like that there isn't a constant drone). In the end, it is a Ford Focus and it will probably be a rattle box in the 1st month or two, why? because it's a Ford Focus. The S4's supercharged engine has immediate throttle response, turbos have a lag, which in the end, I'm sure you would get use to. My 2011 S4 Prestige, ADS, 6MT, and Imola Yellow, now has 108,000 miles, I bought it new and also bought an extended warranty up to 100,000 miles. I was surprised myself, I wasted my money on the extended warranty, I never needed it. Oil changes at the dealership are $70 which are every 10,000 miles. I get a check from Castrol once or twice a year for $20 that I bring to the dealership which brings the cost down even more. I had one brake job with the fronts in the $700 range ad the rear at $900. You can go elsewhere for sure and always get it cheaper. Spending $40,000 on a car is not chump change, so I think it is wise to not be cheap yourself, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way. Treat the car right and it will serve you well, from parts, labor, fuel grade and brand, and so forth. If your spending $40,000 and for $5000 more you get something much more special, go for it. I think you'll be surprised with the Focus RS that the parts probably won't be cheap and the dealer may mark it up over sticker too? I think 6MT is the only way to go, and the quattro in this S4 is a real quattro system and is considered by most to be far superior to any other 4WD or AWD system out there. Oh, another cost is the recommended brake fluid change every two years at $139. The supercharger belt at 75,000 miles. The brake fluid change and pulley belt were included in the Audi care I prepaid for. Good luck

Glisse

I think you need to slow down, and re-assess what your priorities are. It is easy to read too much (or not enough of the right stuff), end up confused, and then ironically rush into a decision. Your "cross-shopping" list covered a really diverse range of vehicles - too diverse. I'm going through this at the moment, use a pro/con list, then apply this to key priorities I have. Helped cut down the list from 10 to 4 for me, which I am now test driving.

The release of the Focus RS has been delayed for a year from its original order date. So "your dealer back home" just won't know. It still has not been signed off for production. Last predicted production date I read was February 2016. It could be even further delayed. Apparently they have been benchmarking the car against the Golf R - guess they haven't got there yet.

Most of the information on the net is PR material released by Ford. And much of that is to do with its "advanced" all wheel drive system. That is actually being developed by a small engineering company in the UK, and not by Ford's European centre. Because of their use of electronic clutches, they can add a program switch that enables a hoon mode, which is effectively a controlled loss of traction in the rear to enable oversteer. UK journalists will love that, as apart from the 3 or so that can actually drive, the rest can now show videos of them demonstrating their amazing skills in car control. Ford didn't invent this journalist mode. Both the BMW M3/M4 and new Mercedes AMG C63 have traction modes that allow a 30 degree rear slip angle no matter how poorly the driver is actually modulating the throttle pedal.

By contrast, Audi engineer the Quattro systems, regardless whether it is using Haldex hydraulic or Torsen mechanical driveline components, to provide maximum traction at all times.

So if you want to drive around the roads of Colorado with the tail of the car hanging out into the opposite lane on every bend, wait a year until the Focus RS finally turns up in the US. If you are after maximum traction all the time, an Audi might be a better choice. I suspect the Focus might be great fun in certain situations, but not over 100,000 miles. And not with anyone else in the car.

Of course, I haven't driven a Focus RS. But then neither has anyone else. So it was a pretty large leap of faith on your part to be on the point of ordering one just based on what you have read.

I assume you have driven a Focus though, so you understand what the car provides in terms of general design approach and quality? It is quite different from an Audi. Also, I believe the engine to be used in the Focus RS is the same 2.3 litre 4 cylinder engine already available in the Mustang. Driving one of those will give you a sense of engine characteristics.

Here in Europe, the Focus is regarded as being in the same class (size wise) as the A3/S3/RS3, Golf, Mercedes A series. The Audi 4 series is a class larger, as Jlarke hinted at in his earlier post.

Are you sure an S3 is really too small, compared to a Focus? Given your significant (and very understandable) concerns with potential maintenance and repair costs, it would seem much more prudent to buy a new S3 with an extended warranty than a used S4 that may, or may not, get you to 100k miles without incurring substantial costs. You will spend the entire time worrying if something is going to break, and that is no way to enjoy a "new" car.

I don't understand your comments on Haldex all wheel drive systems - what have you driven, and in what conditions, that made you think this was inferior to a Torsen system, or that used in a Subaru (or Mitsubishi for that matter)? Whilst I have read some comments in forums promoting the theory that the Torsen system is superior, I haven't actually seen any empirical criticism of the latest Haldex V system that is used in both the Audi S3 and the Golf R (neither of which I have driven).

Finally, both my Audis, an S5 cab and an A7, have Sport differentials and S/tronic gearboxes. Both cars are now 5 years old, and I have had no issues with them whatsoever. It tends to be VW's DSG version that gets labelled with quality issues. Porsche's PDK version seems to have a good reputation. From what I can tell, the Sport differential is bullet proof.

I would not get a manual transmission just because you feel it would be cheaper to maintain, but because you crave the additional involvement that can come from driving a manual. And are prepared to accept the car is slower and less efficient as a result. Forcing yourself to adapt to a manual transmission seems crazy.

Best of luck getting out of the maze

Cheapo911

1. Really what I'm searching for is a practical sporty vehicle. It probably wont see track time. Mostly Monday-Thursday sitting in traffic to and from work. Some trips to the mountains and back home to Iowa here and there. Currently I'm doing about 9k miles a year and I expect that to remain relatively constant for the next few years. With this criteria, a lot fits the bill. Cayenne's, STR8s, FoRS, S3, S4, Golf R, STI, ect are all sporty practical vehicles. Some more sporty, some more practical. Throw in running costs and maintenance and some seem less appealing. Look at interior quality and refinement and some more go away. I'm not strictly a numbers person in terms of performance. I wont buy the RS for the sole reason it has more horsepower than a S4. Long story short, I'm looking for a sporty, refined, practical and relatively affordable DD. I run into problems when I start weighing these; sporty vs practical? Refined vs simplistic/affordable? After find vehicles with a solid balance in these categories the few I've ended up with are the S4, RS, and maybe the S3.

2. I've seen nothing on this anywhere. Production starts in January of 2016, deliveries start in spring of 2016. A source would be great and would make this decision easier.

3. Not looking to be sliding around corners. An engineer working on the RS's AWD system stated in a Subaru forum that the "drift mode" is more marketing than anything. Still takes quite a bit of skill to get it and keep it sideways. So I wasnt buying it with the idea I can hang the tail out at every possible corner. Only reason I'm going with an AWD vehicle is for traction.

4. Yup this is very clear. The S4 clearly has the upper hand in terms of refinement. I feel the S4 may trade some sportiness for that. Cant say for sure without the car being out, but I feel it may be at home on a track more than the S4 would.

5. Actually I went to the dealership a few days ago to look at the S4 again and again today to take an extended drive in the S4 so I did look over a few of the S3s they have. After checking them out I dont think it would be too small of a vehicle. It may be the equivalent to the Focus in terms of model line up but due to the S3 being a sedan I would say the RS and S4 are equal on the practicality scale. Still I'll have to look at the S3 again. I'm curious to see the benefit of the new car warranty. However my dealer had no used S3s, so not cashing in on that first few years of depreciation kind of hurts. Paying 45k for a base S3 vs a 2013 loaded S4 with 35k on the clock becomes a tough decision. Reliability vs Performance.

6. So you're saying theres no benefit to a Torsen LSD with torque vectoring vs an open diff haldex with torque vectoring via braking? While I dont have the numerical evidence to back up the claim, you've got to believe the Torsen is a more performance oriented setup.

7. Good to here you're luck with the cars! Always comforting to hear. I wouldnt say I wanted to get the manual solely based on the reliability factor. I would consider myself a car nut like most of you, and love the feeling of having complete control over the car. A manual definitely offers that. Not to mention its a much more involved experience and hey its more fun right! After driving the DSG I feel that it offers superior performance, trades off some control, and give more practicality. I walked into the dealership today under the impression if I left with a S4 this week it would be a manual, but left thinking I would get the DSG. I still keep going back and forth on which I want as I type this. The manual would be more engaging and fun, but a pain in the *** on my 1.5 hours of driving in traffic Monday-Thursday. It should be less to maintain, but its would be my first manual car I've owned and could see a clutch earlier than usual. That wont be cheap. The DSG is more convenient and faster, however that is a very expensive and complicated component. Practicality vs affordability.


Really I could sum this up as X vs Y. I need to start deciding what I value more in these situations.

Appreciate you're response! I should go look at the S3 again. For some reason the Haldex/4 banger combo is just turning me off, and I really dont have a good reason for that. Maybe the exhaust note has something to do with it. I'm fine with the 2.3 in the RS. Its going to have a mean exhaust note from the factory. With the S4 I planned on doing a new exhaust system on it just to get more of a note from it. Nothing over the top by any means, just something I can hear without having to have it pumped in through the speakers. Havent looked into the option of an exhaust system on the S3, I'll have to youtube how a few of those sound and who knows maybe I'll drive myself completely crazy trying to decide between the 3

Cheapo911

Yup they are very different but I do see them as some what similar. I just feel one is more sporty, and one is more refined.

And I'm with you on taking care of the car property. I firmly believe quality preventative maintenance can reduce the serious problems you have down the road.

Not too worried about mark up on the RS, dealer is a friend and is selling it to us at MSRP. Parts however are an unknown. Dont believe they will be as expensive as the S4, but wont know for sure for a while.

And ah yes Audi Care. The car I'm looking at has it now from the previous owner and it just had its 35k done with the 45k covered when that comes. That would be something I would continue to purchase.

Thanks for the response as well!