Took the S4 to the track last weekend
11-10-2010, 08:18 AM
#21
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I never implied that it was static did I? I'm just talking about the "buffer" space of how much harder you can push the car or how faster you can start bleeding off a bit of speed. Not arguing on the increase of grip (given - you upgrade, you should get more anyways).
A stock setup is more forgiving. That is all I'm saying. It can tolorate more "donkey-ing". Sure when you add stiffer suspension, swaybars and what have you, your limit of adhesion increases, yet at the same time, you won't enjoy as large of a margin of error (it is less forgiving). This is particularly important when you are just starting out and getting your feet wet (as you won't drive as consistent nor have as much experience in correcting yourself - as someone who knows what to do).
Think of it this way. What would be the difference if I ran into a corner a bit hot and hit the inner curb (that is kinda tall) with 1) a stock suspension setup and 2) a stiff track prepped set up? At the limit in both instances, the both cars would "bounce" off of the curb and go into an understeer (haha I did this in the wet once - in the process of uploading the video). The difference is that it would be worse in #2. Think about the differences if you hit a rock in the middle of a hard corner. Think about it if you hit a bump mid corner. In all of those situations, a stock setup will always be more forgiving.
Again with my example with racing rubber. Street tires will chirp away but still stick (and you can even push a tad bit more). Track tires, when it chirps, it really means you should back off. Yes the amount of adhesion is increased (that was never my point), but the margin of error is decreased. That is all I'm saying.
The purpose of the HDPE is to try and find (learn) your car's limit and to ride that fine line. I felt it many times in corners and braking points (i knew the car was on the verge of letting loose). I've even went over the limit to see how that feels too (enter in too hot, power too early, steer to sharply and abruptly).
But of course I may be doing a poor job of explaining. So please, go join your local Audi club and take part in the next HPDE. I've learned so much and ultimately, they can definitely explain it better than me.
A stock setup is more forgiving. That is all I'm saying. It can tolorate more "donkey-ing". Sure when you add stiffer suspension, swaybars and what have you, your limit of adhesion increases, yet at the same time, you won't enjoy as large of a margin of error (it is less forgiving). This is particularly important when you are just starting out and getting your feet wet (as you won't drive as consistent nor have as much experience in correcting yourself - as someone who knows what to do).
Think of it this way. What would be the difference if I ran into a corner a bit hot and hit the inner curb (that is kinda tall) with 1) a stock suspension setup and 2) a stiff track prepped set up? At the limit in both instances, the both cars would "bounce" off of the curb and go into an understeer (haha I did this in the wet once - in the process of uploading the video). The difference is that it would be worse in #2. Think about the differences if you hit a rock in the middle of a hard corner. Think about it if you hit a bump mid corner. In all of those situations, a stock setup will always be more forgiving.
Again with my example with racing rubber. Street tires will chirp away but still stick (and you can even push a tad bit more). Track tires, when it chirps, it really means you should back off. Yes the amount of adhesion is increased (that was never my point), but the margin of error is decreased. That is all I'm saying.
The purpose of the HDPE is to try and find (learn) your car's limit and to ride that fine line. I felt it many times in corners and braking points (i knew the car was on the verge of letting loose). I've even went over the limit to see how that feels too (enter in too hot, power too early, steer to sharply and abruptly).
But of course I may be doing a poor job of explaining. So please, go join your local Audi club and take part in the next HPDE. I've learned so much and ultimately, they can definitely explain it better than me.
Last edited by PsYkHoTiK; 11-10-2010 at 08:24 AM.
11-10-2010, 08:23 AM
#22
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I read this yesterday and I've sort of been turning it over in my mind since. Essentially what the instructor is saying is that there is a defined point, X, at which control is lost. A standard setup would begin to complain and make its issues known at a certain point, say X-20%, so you have a 20% margin between when the car begins to be unhappy and where it actually loses control. (All numbers strictly hypothetical). An improved setup might not begin to complain until you reach X-10%, so you would have only a 10% safety margin. But why is the instructor convinced that X is static?
Let's just say that the point of loss of control with an improved suspension also moves (and I think it does move) to a hypothetical X+10%. So the suspension letting you know that it is reaching its limits at X-10% actually leaves you the same margin of 20% and, further, moves the speed at which control will be lost higher, thus making it less likely to be reached and which, taken together, makes the vehicle with the improved suspension safer overall. Just because you can drive faster safely doesn't necessarily mean that you will. In fact you'll probably drive at very near the same speed as before the upgrade but your safety margin after the upgrade will be substantially bigger.
In other words I think the instructor has it exactly backwards. He is essentially saying that improving your car makes it more dangerous to drive fast and I say that improving your car is, well, improving your car.
And improvements will make it both perform better and be safer.
what say ye?
Let's just say that the point of loss of control with an improved suspension also moves (and I think it does move) to a hypothetical X+10%. So the suspension letting you know that it is reaching its limits at X-10% actually leaves you the same margin of 20% and, further, moves the speed at which control will be lost higher, thus making it less likely to be reached and which, taken together, makes the vehicle with the improved suspension safer overall. Just because you can drive faster safely doesn't necessarily mean that you will. In fact you'll probably drive at very near the same speed as before the upgrade but your safety margin after the upgrade will be substantially bigger.
In other words I think the instructor has it exactly backwards. He is essentially saying that improving your car makes it more dangerous to drive fast and I say that improving your car is, well, improving your car.
And improvements will make it both perform better and be safer.
what say ye?
I've attended track days for nearly 10 years, and here's some of my thoughts on why his instructor might have said what he did:
* R-compound tires are known for giving less warning before losing grip, they don't squeal nearly as much as street tires. It's a common speech by instructors that you should learn on street tires for quite a while before moving up to R-comps. However, this particular instructor seems to have been talking more about suspension setups...
* Usually modified suspensions allow more oversteer, or at least minimize understeer, since stock suspensions have so much understeer dialed in to keep the driver "safe". Understeer is easier to correct than oversteer, and I've seen a few people with newly modified suspensions at the track learn quickly that their cars are trickier to drive at the limit due to the cars' willingness to oversteer (these were RWD BMWs, so the results may not be as extreme with AWD Audis)
* Modified suspensions do not allow as much body roll, and body roll will clearly communicate to beginner or intermediate students that the limits of adhesion are approaching. Without the body roll, it's harder to tell.
* With modified suspensions, you should be able to go faster through the corners. Correcting a mistake at higher speeds is harder than correcting a mistake at lower speeds. Also, the results of a crash are obviously worse at higher speeds.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the Bilstein coilovers on my last 3 Series, but I can see why the instructor might have said that. Then again, a lot of drivers say that there's too many people giving warnings about going to R-comps etc.
11-10-2010, 08:35 AM
#23
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Thanks PhilH. The instructors did talk about how stock cars are usually dialed in to understeer rather than oversteer as well (and you are right about how understeer is easier to correct than oversteer).
A track newbie like me certainly needs as the margin of error that the stock car offers (and not get up close and personal to the walls). When I'm more consistent, confident, and have a few tracks under my belt, then I'll see what's what to tweak on the handling.
A track newbie like me certainly needs as the margin of error that the stock car offers (and not get up close and personal to the walls). When I'm more consistent, confident, and have a few tracks under my belt, then I'll see what's what to tweak on the handling.
11-10-2010, 08:41 AM
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ok, that clears it up for me. suspension/tires will improve your car, but it makes it more dangerous in the fact that it's harder to know when you're nearing the limits and you would have to make corrections at a higher speed (which is also harder to do).
Body roll is one thing i didn't think of, and yes, that is a clear indicator to a beginner/intermediate when things are starting to go awry!
thanks for the responses.
Body roll is one thing i didn't think of, and yes, that is a clear indicator to a beginner/intermediate when things are starting to go awry!
thanks for the responses.
11-10-2010, 08:48 AM
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Another semi relevant example I think would be like on gokarts. In the limited number of times I've took one around a gokart track, sure the speed on corners is awesome. But take one too fast, and suddenly it goes from good grip (like on rails) to it being as slick as butter almost instantly (not much time to react). (and then after you spin and it gains full traction again, your body swings to the opposite side and your torso hurts LOL). Given I had no proper training on gokarts... 
11-10-2010, 09:05 AM
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I'm not sure why you seem to take my comments on what your instructor said as an affront to you when all you did was quote him. And now you say that you agree with him. Which of course is fine. But I think I'll continue to believe, along with most or at least many of the posters here (and the whole industry that relies on people such as us! [heh]), that improving suspension components is a way to improve handling and increase safety, rather than the opposite.
11-10-2010, 10:00 AM
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None taken. I hope I didn't imply any offense. Just trying to clarify my stance (haha seems I'm quite horrible at it).
I do believe that mods (should) improve performance (if that's what one is after anyways). I do believe that suspension upgrades will give you the ability to go faster through corners through higher grip/less body roll etc. And race tires will give you more grip as well. I'm just saying, as a novice, I want the comfort of the margin of error that my stock car has to offer and to get a good "feel" of the car's handling (which I think is very neutral actually - and body roll isn't bad - nor is the brake dive - just look at my vids) before I start tacking stuff on. As a novice, I did a lot of things mid corner that I knew the car's stock handling could absorb (and "forgive" me for) without unsettling it's balance mid corner. If I had a stiffer suspension, it would be more prone to unsettling with a noob behind the wheel.
I'm just saying that while the above is true, it's just not as forgiving as a stock setup (at those extremes) and I choose to keep it stock for now as I build my skill and consistency. That is all.
And again, I'm talking strictly from a tracking point of view (where you are to explore the limits). If we're talking day to day, I'll definitely stick to the less bone jarring stock setup.
But again, try going out to one of the driving schools that the local Audi Club organizes. It really is a lot of fun.
Here's another clip of me in on a wet track (with some understeer early on and oversteer towards the end).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqeYiVpmfwA
Here's a pic of me mid corner:
Just trying to clarify my stance (haha seems I'm quite horrible at it).I do believe that mods (should) improve performance (if that's what one is after anyways). I do believe that suspension upgrades will give you the ability to go faster through corners through higher grip/less body roll etc. And race tires will give you more grip as well. I'm just saying, as a novice, I want the comfort of the margin of error that my stock car has to offer and to get a good "feel" of the car's handling (which I think is very neutral actually - and body roll isn't bad - nor is the brake dive - just look at my vids) before I start tacking stuff on. As a novice, I did a lot of things mid corner that I knew the car's stock handling could absorb (and "forgive" me for) without unsettling it's balance mid corner. If I had a stiffer suspension, it would be more prone to unsettling with a noob behind the wheel.
I'm just saying that while the above is true, it's just not as forgiving as a stock setup (at those extremes) and I choose to keep it stock for now as I build my skill and consistency. That is all.
And again, I'm talking strictly from a tracking point of view (where you are to explore the limits). If we're talking day to day, I'll definitely stick to the less bone jarring stock setup.
But again, try going out to one of the driving schools that the local Audi Club organizes. It really is a lot of fun.
Here's another clip of me in on a wet track (with some understeer early on and oversteer towards the end).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqeYiVpmfwA
Here's a pic of me mid corner:
Last edited by PsYkHoTiK; 11-10-2010 at 10:12 AM.
11-10-2010, 11:31 AM
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Yeah I'll try and post some of the mistakes that I made (skids/understeer). I think my 14yr old brother took a few vids from the stands too.
The brakes handled really good. I didn't get any noticeable fade. Though on my last run on Sunday, I started using them quite hard on the straights (repeated slowing down from 100-120mph to 40-45mph within ~300ft) it really started cooking (I could smell it at the paddocks and that was after a very slow cool down lap that I didn't use the brakes at all). If you're going to use the brakes that hard for the whole day, definitely need a BBK. The other sessions, I didn't use it nearly as hard and I couldn't smell any burning smell from the brakes at all though. It bites in really good and very consistent (even when using it hard). Brake pedal feedback was really awesome. These are really good stock brakes.
Handling wise, I'm going to keep bone stock for now. The lead instructor has convinced me. He explained that any mods you do decreases the margin of tolorance that a car has. Like in corners, I could hear the tires chirping (close to it's limit) but I still knew that the car could forgive me if I pushed a tad harder as it still had more adhesion to give. If I had stiffer suspension, that margin would decrease as it would be much less forgiving. Even changing the tires to racing rubber (chirping would be bad - as it really means it is about to break loose). So I'll wait until I am much better and more consistent before I do any of that (and I want to "learn" how the car handles - it handles really really well stock). The only thing I am kinda considering are BBKs now (well maybe after my rotors are worn I suppose). My instructor had BBKs on his S4 and he was braking hard all day long.
The brakes handled really good. I didn't get any noticeable fade. Though on my last run on Sunday, I started using them quite hard on the straights (repeated slowing down from 100-120mph to 40-45mph within ~300ft) it really started cooking (I could smell it at the paddocks and that was after a very slow cool down lap that I didn't use the brakes at all). If you're going to use the brakes that hard for the whole day, definitely need a BBK. The other sessions, I didn't use it nearly as hard and I couldn't smell any burning smell from the brakes at all though. It bites in really good and very consistent (even when using it hard). Brake pedal feedback was really awesome. These are really good stock brakes.
Handling wise, I'm going to keep bone stock for now. The lead instructor has convinced me. He explained that any mods you do decreases the margin of tolorance that a car has. Like in corners, I could hear the tires chirping (close to it's limit) but I still knew that the car could forgive me if I pushed a tad harder as it still had more adhesion to give. If I had stiffer suspension, that margin would decrease as it would be much less forgiving. Even changing the tires to racing rubber (chirping would be bad - as it really means it is about to break loose). So I'll wait until I am much better and more consistent before I do any of that (and I want to "learn" how the car handles - it handles really really well stock). The only thing I am kinda considering are BBKs now (well maybe after my rotors are worn I suppose). My instructor had BBKs on his S4 and he was braking hard all day long.
If you follow any one of the vendors on these forums that run their own racecars, they run as light a car as possible with the smallest wheels that will clear the calipers. A BBK can actually weigh more than the stock brakes. Unless you're literally warping the rotors with fresh pads, you don't need the BBK. If you're able to lock the ABS at speed (you will be able to with race pads) then you don't need a BBK.
Last edited by westwest888; 11-10-2010 at 11:37 AM.
11-10-2010, 11:52 AM
#29
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Know that he is already running StopTech Street Performance pads on the front, and Posi-Quiet semi-metallics on the rears, coupled with SS braided lines and Motul RBF600 fuild. He has the best pads he can use and still have a street friendly/daily driver setup really.
11-10-2010, 12:05 PM
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You definitely DO NOT need a BBK. You can upgrade to race pads and the car will stop just fine. They're about $400 plus labor for the front axle. You can optionally do the rear for half the price. The S4 comes with gigantic rotors and calipers that can easily stop the car.
If you follow any one of the vendors on these forums that run their own racecars, they run as light a car as possible with the smallest wheels that will clear the calipers. A BBK can actually weigh more than the stock brakes. Unless you're literally warping the rotors with fresh pads, you don't need the BBK. If you're able to lock the ABS at speed (you will be able to with race pads) then you don't need a BBK.
If you follow any one of the vendors on these forums that run their own racecars, they run as light a car as possible with the smallest wheels that will clear the calipers. A BBK can actually weigh more than the stock brakes. Unless you're literally warping the rotors with fresh pads, you don't need the BBK. If you're able to lock the ABS at speed (you will be able to with race pads) then you don't need a BBK.
Since I am a newbie on tracking cars (and it seems that I really want to do this more often) and I am always eager to learn, could I bug you for your thoughts on some things?
How does an increase in tire profile affect cornerning (if at all) if lets say I run 18s on the track (I know that will clear the stock brakes)? I am considering wheels and (street for now I suppose) tires (just so that I can wear out one and keep using the other day to day).
The brakes handled really well over the weekend. The last session though, was when I really started braking at the limit. A friend of mine (who tracks often) has once said that the rotors on this car are huge and enough for track events (essentially, they are big brakes). With that said, I could really smell the brakes when I used them hard on that one session after a cool down lap back in the paddocks. Will racing pads not cook like the street performance pads I have on em now? Also, would I be wrong in thinking that they will bite/clamp a lot harder (even at higher speeds)?
I definitely don't want to go tweaking and changing out different things without knowing what I'm getting into. I want to avoid the old saying "A fool and his money are soon parted".
Again, after the driver's ed, I have a HUGE respect for how much this car can handle. It was soo hard for me to get it loose on the watered down skid pad (with traction control turned off). Phenominal car and my satisfaction owning it has increased tremendously after last weekend.
Last edited by PsYkHoTiK; 11-10-2010 at 12:08 PM.