Anyone cross shopping the RS 3 vs S4?
08-02-2017, 10:11 AM
#1
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Anyone cross shopping the RS 3 vs S4?
I know these two cars are not in the same class as far as body size and cylinder count, but they are both 4-door sport sedans with automatic transmissions and if you build a fully loaded Prestige S4, you are very close to the price of a loaded RS 3. I'm not in the market for a new car right now and would likely not consider either one because neither is offered in a manual, but I would certainly cross shop the RS 3 if I were looking at a loaded S4. The RS 3 is faster and louder, but the roomier S4 with the bigger 3.0 turbo V6 is more up my alley and the newer body style over the just facelifted A3/S3/RS 3 body style is important to me. It's a shame AoA offers the A4 in a manual, but not the more performance oriented S4. I think they have it backwards. S4 would have more 6MT takers than A4.
Last edited by Bada Bing; 08-02-2017 at 10:20 AM.
08-02-2017, 10:31 AM
#2
AudiWorld Senior Member
I looked at S3 vs S4. I have a 2015 S3 in the family and have driven it quite a bit. Great car, more fun to drive (felt much more go-karty, nimble, and a bit poised to go than S4) but I ruled it out right away because the tech and everyday comforts of the S4 absolutely eclipse the **** out of the S3.
You can barely fit a single suitcase in the trunk of the S3, and ski gear will not work at all in the pass-through unless you drive them all they way up between the front seats. It is, by all practical purposes, a 4-door Audi TT and the vestigial back seats are not workable for anyone over 5'7", period. An average sized adult might elect to take an uber home from the airport vs get picked up in an S3's back seats, even if the ride was free.
Neither car can be driven to its limit without a felony speeding or reckless driving citation, so the cross-shop really comes down to what you want the car to be able to do.
The S4, in my opinion, makes a clear case for being a better daily driver with utilitarian practicality, and it strikes me as a far more adult car. The RS3, on the other hand, boy I would yearn to have one if I was a wealthy late-20-something single person interested in track days. I'm not sure I'd be as eager to drive it in the snow, though, quattro or not: ride height and stiffness is still a consideration. Then again the S4 is pretty low too.
You can barely fit a single suitcase in the trunk of the S3, and ski gear will not work at all in the pass-through unless you drive them all they way up between the front seats. It is, by all practical purposes, a 4-door Audi TT and the vestigial back seats are not workable for anyone over 5'7", period. An average sized adult might elect to take an uber home from the airport vs get picked up in an S3's back seats, even if the ride was free.
Neither car can be driven to its limit without a felony speeding or reckless driving citation, so the cross-shop really comes down to what you want the car to be able to do.
The S4, in my opinion, makes a clear case for being a better daily driver with utilitarian practicality, and it strikes me as a far more adult car. The RS3, on the other hand, boy I would yearn to have one if I was a wealthy late-20-something single person interested in track days. I'm not sure I'd be as eager to drive it in the snow, though, quattro or not: ride height and stiffness is still a consideration. Then again the S4 is pretty low too.
08-03-2017, 05:35 AM
#3
I know these two cars are not in the same class as far as body size and cylinder count, but they are both 4-door sport sedans with automatic transmissions and if you build a fully loaded Prestige S4, you are very close to the price of a loaded RS 3. I'm not in the market for a new car right now and would likely not consider either one because neither is offered in a manual, but I would certainly cross shop the RS 3 if I were looking at a loaded S4. The RS 3 is faster and louder, but the roomier S4 with the bigger 3.0 turbo V6 is more up my alley and the newer body style over the just facelifted A3/S3/RS 3 body style is important to me. It's a shame AoA offers the A4 in a manual, but not the more performance oriented S4. I think they have it backwards. S4 would have more 6MT takers than A4.
The "more takers" argument for the higher dollar cars has over the past few years not panned out. I would assume a manual transmission A4 will also not be very popular either.
After almost four years with a DSG 7-spd in an S4, I could see no justification for a manual transmission car in this class. Those who will lay out $60K are not going to track their cars and will be driving them to and from their place of work.
Further, several of the driver assistance systems won't work with a manual transmission.
It is somewhat of a contradiction, however, that there are times when the dealer -- with ONE manual transmission car on the lot -- will find it has an enthusiastic buyer.
However, when even thinking about an inventory greater than one, most dealers know that the MT's are more of a curiosity than something justifying the holding costs required.
Now, with nearly 4K miles on my S4 with the 8-spd, I am impressed that other than when I'm posting here, I don't miss the DSG at all.
Other than a few purple squirrels here on AW, I can, now, say I only know one person who has a manual transmission car -- a 2012 Mini. And, recently, he has commented that he would seriously consider no more manuals next time around.
My wife, "no automatics" for most of the time I have known her, had her last stick shift in 2008. She says she sometimes misses the shifting, but not while she is driving.
I think that says it all. If you are a manual transmission shopper and the lack of one would be a deal breaker, I wish you luck, for your choices are eroding even as you are reading these words.
You'd better go out -- NOW -- and get one of the last stick shifts on the market (if you can find one).
08-03-2017, 06:15 AM
#4
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Thread Starter
I don't know how you can claim that the B8 S4 manual was unpopular. I fully appreciate the realities of the market and know that the days of manual transmission are numbered. However, it's also true that most people in the US buy cars off the lot and don't want to wait 4 months for a car to their exact specifications. When a dealer stocks only one or two manual cars, chances of it having the right color combo and options for any given potential buyer is miniscule. So it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Dealers stock fewer and fewer manual cars and when they sit because it's not the right color or doesn't have the right options, they can say nobody wants manual cars.
I still believe that that a manual S4 would have a higher take-up rate than a manual A4. I'm also not a huge fan of some of the newer driver assist features like lane departure warning. I can take them or leave them.
I still believe that that a manual S4 would have a higher take-up rate than a manual A4. I'm also not a huge fan of some of the newer driver assist features like lane departure warning. I can take them or leave them.
The manual transmission S4 was (and I would assume remains) unpopular.
The "more takers" argument for the higher dollar cars has over the past few years not panned out. I would assume a manual transmission A4 will also not be very popular either.
After almost four years with a DSG 7-spd in an S4, I could see no justification for a manual transmission car in this class. Those who will lay out $60K are not going to track their cars and will be driving them to and from their place of work.
Further, several of the driver assistance systems won't work with a manual transmission.
It is somewhat of a contradiction, however, that there are times when the dealer -- with ONE manual transmission car on the lot -- will find it has an enthusiastic buyer.
However, when even thinking about an inventory greater than one, most dealers know that the MT's are more of a curiosity than something justifying the holding costs required.
Now, with nearly 4K miles on my S4 with the 8-spd, I am impressed that other than when I'm posting here, I don't miss the DSG at all.
Other than a few purple squirrels here on AW, I can, now, say I only know one person who has a manual transmission car -- a 2012 Mini. And, recently, he has commented that he would seriously consider no more manuals next time around.
My wife, "no automatics" for most of the time I have known her, had her last stick shift in 2008. She says she sometimes misses the shifting, but not while she is driving.
I think that says it all. If you are a manual transmission shopper and the lack of one would be a deal breaker, I wish you luck, for your choices are eroding even as you are reading these words.
You'd better go out -- NOW -- and get one of the last stick shifts on the market (if you can find one).
The "more takers" argument for the higher dollar cars has over the past few years not panned out. I would assume a manual transmission A4 will also not be very popular either.
After almost four years with a DSG 7-spd in an S4, I could see no justification for a manual transmission car in this class. Those who will lay out $60K are not going to track their cars and will be driving them to and from their place of work.
Further, several of the driver assistance systems won't work with a manual transmission.
It is somewhat of a contradiction, however, that there are times when the dealer -- with ONE manual transmission car on the lot -- will find it has an enthusiastic buyer.
However, when even thinking about an inventory greater than one, most dealers know that the MT's are more of a curiosity than something justifying the holding costs required.
Now, with nearly 4K miles on my S4 with the 8-spd, I am impressed that other than when I'm posting here, I don't miss the DSG at all.
Other than a few purple squirrels here on AW, I can, now, say I only know one person who has a manual transmission car -- a 2012 Mini. And, recently, he has commented that he would seriously consider no more manuals next time around.
My wife, "no automatics" for most of the time I have known her, had her last stick shift in 2008. She says she sometimes misses the shifting, but not while she is driving.
I think that says it all. If you are a manual transmission shopper and the lack of one would be a deal breaker, I wish you luck, for your choices are eroding even as you are reading these words.
You'd better go out -- NOW -- and get one of the last stick shifts on the market (if you can find one).
Last edited by Bada Bing; 08-03-2017 at 06:28 AM.
08-03-2017, 06:17 AM
#5
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I looked at S3 vs S4. I have a 2015 S3 in the family and have driven it quite a bit. Great car, more fun to drive (felt much more go-karty, nimble, and a bit poised to go than S4) but I ruled it out right away because the tech and everyday comforts of the S4 absolutely eclipse the **** out of the S3.
The RS3, though - track day pocket rocket, for sure. Not a car I'd want to live with as a daily.
08-03-2017, 09:38 AM
#6
AudiWorld Member
Cars.com is a pretty good proxy for take rate. I did a quick query for the B8.5 series cars and found the following:
S4 - 13% Manual
S5 - 12% Manual
A4 - 4% Manual
A5 - 4% Manual
So this decidedly unscientific survey does reveal the S cars have a higher take rate for manuals. I'd order a new S5 today if I could get a manual (and black optics, but that's another Audi product planning fail). I'll likely still order a new Audi in the next few months, but I may wait for the '19s to see where the options mix shakes out.
S4 - 13% Manual
S5 - 12% Manual
A4 - 4% Manual
A5 - 4% Manual
So this decidedly unscientific survey does reveal the S cars have a higher take rate for manuals. I'd order a new S5 today if I could get a manual (and black optics, but that's another Audi product planning fail). I'll likely still order a new Audi in the next few months, but I may wait for the '19s to see where the options mix shakes out.
08-03-2017, 03:04 PM
#7
I don't know how you can claim that the B8 S4 manual was unpopular. I fully appreciate the realities of the market and know that the days of manual transmission are numbered. However, it's also true that most people in the US buy cars off the lot and don't want to wait 4 months for a car to their exact specifications. When a dealer stocks only one or two manual cars, chances of it having the right color combo and options for any given potential buyer is miniscule. So it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Dealers stock fewer and fewer manual cars and when they sit because it's not the right color or doesn't have the right options, they can say nobody wants manual cars.
I still believe that that a manual S4 would have a higher take-up rate than a manual A4. I'm also not a huge fan of some of the newer driver assist features like lane departure warning. I can take them or leave them.
I still believe that that a manual S4 would have a higher take-up rate than a manual A4. I'm also not a huge fan of some of the newer driver assist features like lane departure warning. I can take them or leave them.
Someone, some "hired" company studies the markets a car will be introduced into and makes recommendations that are based on revenue, income or some metric that can be presented to the decision makers.
Manuals are losers -- that is NOT my opinion -- although I am, at this point, "over" them, they don't make sense as we are marching toward more and more autonomy that requires an automatic transmission.
The fact that something that happened in the past may indicate in our minds a certain take rate, there are other data points that are thrown into the decision matrix that attempt to "predict" the market (hence the revenue and income) for this, that and the other feature.
As I said, I assume the take rate for manuals in the A4 will be low (I think I just said unpopular).
Our (your's and mine) opinions unfortunately carry very little weight. I would think even dealers' input is only given a small amount of weight.
It is apparently true that "no one" wants manual transmissions.
The fact that you and I might be persuaded to buy one (ok, YOU might) is less than irrelevant.
Perhaps if we could come up with 500 customers who would put money down on "special ordered" cars (because the dealers don't want to carry them), that would work.
Good luck making that happen.
This issue is one of THE examples of learning what it means to be a "screaming voice in the wilderness," no one hears it and no one who does actually listens, thinking it is an outlier and therefore not relevant to their pocketbooks.
If I were to concede (which I will, gladly) that S4 manual equipped cars would sell better than A4s, it still would not make one tiny iota of difference.
At this moment: Manuals are dead (respective to what we have been talking about). They may come back, who knows. The performance, comfort and efficiency arguments are (at this time) won, and easily so, by automatics.
Frankly, I got my last stick shift in 2003 when I ordered an every option box ticked off allroad -- and even so, I could not get one with the V8, since it was only automatic, I had to get the 2.7T (which was a great engine with lots of torque early).
Today stick shifts are for "the lunatic fringe," Audi may know you're out there, but you don't impact their revenue or income, so, to repeat, you're (we're) irrelevant.
Next.
Last edited by markcincinnati; 08-03-2017 at 03:07 PM.
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08-03-2017, 03:18 PM
#8
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Even then, I kinda doubt it. Think about the associated carrying costs (probably not the most precise term) for the dealerships to service those rowing machines over their (warranty) lifespan for 500 units across maybe 300 dealerships across the country? I'm not feeling that as viable.
08-03-2017, 03:23 PM
#9
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Your points are well taken. I guess my point was that i Audi was going to offer one of the two A4/S4 models in the U.S. market in a manual, the more enthusiast oriented S4 was the better candidate. I fully expect AoA to discontinue the manual A4 2.0T quattro as early as the 2018 or 2019 model year.
I know automakers are in the business of making money and certainly don't expect them to certify a drivetrain combination that not enough people buy. In fact, I am really surprised that AoA even offered the 2017 A4 2.0T 6MT halfway through the model year. Hopefully sales are enough to justify keeping the manual version for a couple more years and I can lease or buy one before they are extinct.
I know automakers are in the business of making money and certainly don't expect them to certify a drivetrain combination that not enough people buy. In fact, I am really surprised that AoA even offered the 2017 A4 2.0T 6MT halfway through the model year. Hopefully sales are enough to justify keeping the manual version for a couple more years and I can lease or buy one before they are extinct.
I also "believe" that a manual S4 ought to have some fans. I don't know if I meant to suggest the A4 would have a higher take rate, I don't think I compared the two.
Someone, some "hired" company studies the markets a car will be introduced into and makes recommendations that are based on revenue, income or some metric that can be presented to the decision makers.
Manuals are losers -- that is NOT my opinion -- although I am, at this point, "over" them, they don't make sense as we are marching toward more and more autonomy that requires an automatic transmission.
The fact that something that happened in the past may indicate in our minds a certain take rate, there are other data points that are thrown into the decision matrix that attempt to "predict" the market (hence the revenue and income) for this, that and the other feature.
As I said, I assume the take rate for manuals in the A4 will be low (I think I just said unpopular).
Our (your's and mine) opinions unfortunately carry very little weight. I would think even dealers' input is only given a small amount of weight.
It is apparently true that "no one" wants manual transmissions.
The fact that you and I might be persuaded to buy one (ok, YOU might) is less than irrelevant.
Perhaps if we could come up with 500 customers who would put money down on "special ordered" cars (because the dealers don't want to carry them), that would work.
Good luck making that happen.
This issue is one of THE examples of learning what it means to be a "screaming voice in the wilderness," no one hears it and no one who does actually listens, thinking it is an outlier and therefore not relevant to their pocketbooks.
If I were to concede (which I will, gladly) that S4 manual equipped cars would sell better than A4s, it still would not make one tiny iota of difference.
At this moment: Manuals are dead (respective to what we have been talking about). They may come back, who knows. The performance, comfort and efficiency arguments are (at this time) won, and easily so, by automatics.
Frankly, I got my last stick shift in 2003 when I ordered an every option box ticked off allroad -- and even so, I could not get one with the V8, since it was only automatic, I had to get the 2.7T (which was a great engine with lots of torque early).
Today stick shifts are for "the lunatic fringe," Audi may know you're out there, but you don't impact their revenue or income, so, to repeat, you're (we're) irrelevant.
Next.
Someone, some "hired" company studies the markets a car will be introduced into and makes recommendations that are based on revenue, income or some metric that can be presented to the decision makers.
Manuals are losers -- that is NOT my opinion -- although I am, at this point, "over" them, they don't make sense as we are marching toward more and more autonomy that requires an automatic transmission.
The fact that something that happened in the past may indicate in our minds a certain take rate, there are other data points that are thrown into the decision matrix that attempt to "predict" the market (hence the revenue and income) for this, that and the other feature.
As I said, I assume the take rate for manuals in the A4 will be low (I think I just said unpopular).
Our (your's and mine) opinions unfortunately carry very little weight. I would think even dealers' input is only given a small amount of weight.
It is apparently true that "no one" wants manual transmissions.
The fact that you and I might be persuaded to buy one (ok, YOU might) is less than irrelevant.
Perhaps if we could come up with 500 customers who would put money down on "special ordered" cars (because the dealers don't want to carry them), that would work.
Good luck making that happen.
This issue is one of THE examples of learning what it means to be a "screaming voice in the wilderness," no one hears it and no one who does actually listens, thinking it is an outlier and therefore not relevant to their pocketbooks.
If I were to concede (which I will, gladly) that S4 manual equipped cars would sell better than A4s, it still would not make one tiny iota of difference.
At this moment: Manuals are dead (respective to what we have been talking about). They may come back, who knows. The performance, comfort and efficiency arguments are (at this time) won, and easily so, by automatics.
Frankly, I got my last stick shift in 2003 when I ordered an every option box ticked off allroad -- and even so, I could not get one with the V8, since it was only automatic, I had to get the 2.7T (which was a great engine with lots of torque early).
Today stick shifts are for "the lunatic fringe," Audi may know you're out there, but you don't impact their revenue or income, so, to repeat, you're (we're) irrelevant.
Next.
Last edited by Bada Bing; 08-04-2017 at 01:52 PM.
09-04-2017, 06:26 PM
#10
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I found the somewhat funny video comparing the S4 and RS3. This is not a technical review. Though, I suspect one of us, who ordered a S4, may have considered the RS3 (I did).