Alcon B-type kit review
02-06-2000, 11:12 PM
#1
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Alcon B-type kit review
First, let me give a huge thanks out to Jim de Arras and Andrew Lee (AnotherDrew). They helped out TREMENDOUSLY.
Install:
A pain. I didn't receive any directions with the kit from Vortrag. The kit looked pretty simple to install though. Most of it was straight forward, with some important guidance from Nick @ APR. The worst part of the install was when we had it all together at about 11pm or so. I went out for a short drive to bed the pads and rotors, only to find that the outer brake pads were dragging on the rotor. There was a shimmy at about 50 mph, which is what prompted me to go back. The rotors got so hot that they blued, which generally means trashed rotors. It was really late at this point, like 2am or so, so I pulled the pads, took them with me, thinking that I'd have to get them grounded down, and Jim let me borrow his 80 Quattro to drive Andrew home (Andrew and I live about 2 hours from Jim). I called APR to leave a message, and caught one of the guys there, in the middle of the night! This isn't the first time either! These guys are workaholics. It's great!
While I was heading back, Jim researched fixed caliper installs, as opposed to our stock sliding calipers. I should have done this beforehand. Anyhow, I didn't get back til 5am, so I slept in. In the meantime, Jim called Nick @ APR to talk to him about moving the brackets and calipers out with spacers/washers. They come with Mov'it kits, as well as a few other fixed caliper kits. My calipers were off by the same amount on each side. I headed on back in the 80Q, and Jim went ahead and removed the brackets, installed the proper sized spacers, and reassembled everything except for the pads, which I had with me. What a friend!
When I got to Jim's place, I fit the pads, put the wheels back on and went for a second drive. The car was rolling well, and there was no drag. In fact, there is now less pad drag than when my car was stock (the car rolls on almost flat surfaces, like in my garage).
The results:
Excellent pedal feel. The stock feels mushy by comparison. The pagid blacks grab smoothly too. No sudden brake "grabiness". I have a slight wobble when braking lightly from 80mph, which I'm going to hope sorts itself out. Probably slightly warped from the pad dragging drive. The pads get squeaky when they're really cold, like after a highway drive, but it goes away after two moderate stops. Ultimate braking power is greatly improved. You get pinned to the seatbelt right away. The difference is very apparent. I can't wait to really test it out at the track.
Overall, I give the kit a 9/10 rating. I think that documentation should be in order to prevent having to research things like the brake pad sensor (needs to be shorted), and the kit should include high quality shims to center the caliper over the rotor to compensate for any manufacturing tolerances, since it's a fixed caliper.
Warren
Install:
A pain. I didn't receive any directions with the kit from Vortrag. The kit looked pretty simple to install though. Most of it was straight forward, with some important guidance from Nick @ APR. The worst part of the install was when we had it all together at about 11pm or so. I went out for a short drive to bed the pads and rotors, only to find that the outer brake pads were dragging on the rotor. There was a shimmy at about 50 mph, which is what prompted me to go back. The rotors got so hot that they blued, which generally means trashed rotors. It was really late at this point, like 2am or so, so I pulled the pads, took them with me, thinking that I'd have to get them grounded down, and Jim let me borrow his 80 Quattro to drive Andrew home (Andrew and I live about 2 hours from Jim). I called APR to leave a message, and caught one of the guys there, in the middle of the night! This isn't the first time either! These guys are workaholics. It's great!
While I was heading back, Jim researched fixed caliper installs, as opposed to our stock sliding calipers. I should have done this beforehand. Anyhow, I didn't get back til 5am, so I slept in. In the meantime, Jim called Nick @ APR to talk to him about moving the brackets and calipers out with spacers/washers. They come with Mov'it kits, as well as a few other fixed caliper kits. My calipers were off by the same amount on each side. I headed on back in the 80Q, and Jim went ahead and removed the brackets, installed the proper sized spacers, and reassembled everything except for the pads, which I had with me. What a friend!
When I got to Jim's place, I fit the pads, put the wheels back on and went for a second drive. The car was rolling well, and there was no drag. In fact, there is now less pad drag than when my car was stock (the car rolls on almost flat surfaces, like in my garage).
The results:
Excellent pedal feel. The stock feels mushy by comparison. The pagid blacks grab smoothly too. No sudden brake "grabiness". I have a slight wobble when braking lightly from 80mph, which I'm going to hope sorts itself out. Probably slightly warped from the pad dragging drive. The pads get squeaky when they're really cold, like after a highway drive, but it goes away after two moderate stops. Ultimate braking power is greatly improved. You get pinned to the seatbelt right away. The difference is very apparent. I can't wait to really test it out at the track.
Overall, I give the kit a 9/10 rating. I think that documentation should be in order to prevent having to research things like the brake pad sensor (needs to be shorted), and the kit should include high quality shims to center the caliper over the rotor to compensate for any manufacturing tolerances, since it's a fixed caliper.
Warren
02-07-2000, 04:13 AM
#2
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My observations
All in all the installation, once the false starts were finished, was easier that I though it would be.
Some observations:
The vendor should do a better job of tapping the threads into the adaptor bracket. Specifically, they should provide a camfer (there's a real ME name for this, but I'm an EE!) on the start on the threads to make starting the bolt easier. It's WAY too easy to cross-thread. They should also consider including new bolts, the factory ones that get re-used have loctite in the threads all the way up, and this is hard to clean out, so fresh loctite can be used, and the bolt thread easily into the new bracket. Again, the bolt could have the proper entry camfer for easy thread starting, as this is the hardest part, especially while juggling shims!
And lastly, they should provide a selection of shims, I was very lucky to locate hardware store ones that were close enough (a couple of dollar bill thicknesses off) to center the rotor so the pads had freeplay on both sides.
It was a learning exerience, and any time I can learn something about my car, I am happy!
Some observations:
The vendor should do a better job of tapping the threads into the adaptor bracket. Specifically, they should provide a camfer (there's a real ME name for this, but I'm an EE!) on the start on the threads to make starting the bolt easier. It's WAY too easy to cross-thread. They should also consider including new bolts, the factory ones that get re-used have loctite in the threads all the way up, and this is hard to clean out, so fresh loctite can be used, and the bolt thread easily into the new bracket. Again, the bolt could have the proper entry camfer for easy thread starting, as this is the hardest part, especially while juggling shims!
And lastly, they should provide a selection of shims, I was very lucky to locate hardware store ones that were close enough (a couple of dollar bill thicknesses off) to center the rotor so the pads had freeplay on both sides.
It was a learning exerience, and any time I can learn something about my car, I am happy!
02-07-2000, 05:45 AM
#5
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Spoke with Vortrag
Jim, give Todd a call @ Vortrag. He wants to know the exact thickness of spacers/shims you used.
For suspension I plan on heading up to Vortrag in a few months, and Todd offered to get a new bracket on there without shims needed, customized to my car, that way I don't have to worry about them. Seems to be just fine right now, and those bolts are evenly torqued down and threadlocked, but it would indeed be nice to have the bracket right up against the hub.
Jim, you're right. I guess looking back on it a day later, the process is pretty simple, but I think instructions are still in order (pad sensors, torque specs, aligning caliper, etc), considering the amount of bucks being spent. Ideally, shims wouldn't be used, but it's tough to get an exact fitment of the fixed caliper over the rotor. I think that if you can't go to Vortrag directly to have it taken care of, that you should request some high quality shims, or that the kit could come with various shims in sets of 4.
Warren
For suspension I plan on heading up to Vortrag in a few months, and Todd offered to get a new bracket on there without shims needed, customized to my car, that way I don't have to worry about them. Seems to be just fine right now, and those bolts are evenly torqued down and threadlocked, but it would indeed be nice to have the bracket right up against the hub.
Jim, you're right. I guess looking back on it a day later, the process is pretty simple, but I think instructions are still in order (pad sensors, torque specs, aligning caliper, etc), considering the amount of bucks being spent. Ideally, shims wouldn't be used, but it's tough to get an exact fitment of the fixed caliper over the rotor. I think that if you can't go to Vortrag directly to have it taken care of, that you should request some high quality shims, or that the kit could come with various shims in sets of 4.
Warren
02-07-2000, 05:48 AM
#6
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I'm curious too (more)
They're pretty normal ABS brakes. Can you trigger ABS with VAGTool or something? The fluid in the ABS mechanism is pretty unsubstantial, and just gets cycled with the new brake fluid when it inevitably goes off (already has).
Is there some odd stuff about S4 brakes? I didn't have to do this when I bled the A4.
Warren
Is there some odd stuff about S4 brakes? I didn't have to do this when I bled the A4.
Warren
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02-07-2000, 06:49 AM
#9
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Another plus for the Alcons....better brake clearance, lighter weight.
I'm guessing here, but there are two other pluses with Alcons besides having no brake fade. One, there's an additional 4-6 mm of brake clearance. Second, the Alcons gives about 5 lbs of unsprung weight less per wheel.
02-07-2000, 08:02 AM
#10
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Yeah, it is lighter, since the bracket and caliper are fully aluminum (more)
I had forgotten to write about that. One of the other reasons why I got Alcons is because I spoke with APR and Vortrag and they said that I actually gain clearance with them. The radial clearance is slightly reduced, but axial clearance is improved, which means I should have a much better selection of wheels now.
Warren
Warren