To all you bitching about the turbos ... remember that .,..
08-02-2002, 10:01 AM
#11
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I honestly think that its because they are over engineered...
People talk about how meticulously engineered German cars are -- how accurate parts are, and how detail-oriented their manufacture is.
Problem is, when something is engineered to high tolerances, it tends to not be designed to handle when those tolerances change.
Shoddy workmanship and less meticulous manufacture and assembly of other cars, like older American and Japanese cars means, I think, that a higher tolerance for variance in the system has to be naturally engineered into them. More room for slop in the design, the better it'll take to being run outside of its spec.
Anyway, its just a theory, but...
Problem is, when something is engineered to high tolerances, it tends to not be designed to handle when those tolerances change.
Shoddy workmanship and less meticulous manufacture and assembly of other cars, like older American and Japanese cars means, I think, that a higher tolerance for variance in the system has to be naturally engineered into them. More room for slop in the design, the better it'll take to being run outside of its spec.
Anyway, its just a theory, but...
08-02-2002, 10:06 AM
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exactly...
there was an article in "Christophorous" about how Porsche agonized over the last MM of steering wheel thickness...too bad they didnt agonize over that last .07MM on my crankshaft.
Over designed and too complex for the manufacturing and production capabilities of the factories.
IMHO the term "engineering" means making mechanical devices work and I dont buy that germans have particularly high engineering standards because a car that's prone to turbo failures that takes over 20 man hours to remove the engine on is NOT well engineered.
The Porsche is designed with repairs and replacements in mind...that's good news for the service department but honestly, if they made it so it DIDN'T need replacing in the first place that MIGHT be a good thing.
My dad was very high up in aerospace and spent some time in Germany and he gets visibly upset any time someone suggests Germans have "superior" engineering and he uses the term "blacksmiths".
Over designed and too complex for the manufacturing and production capabilities of the factories.
IMHO the term "engineering" means making mechanical devices work and I dont buy that germans have particularly high engineering standards because a car that's prone to turbo failures that takes over 20 man hours to remove the engine on is NOT well engineered.
The Porsche is designed with repairs and replacements in mind...that's good news for the service department but honestly, if they made it so it DIDN'T need replacing in the first place that MIGHT be a good thing.
My dad was very high up in aerospace and spent some time in Germany and he gets visibly upset any time someone suggests Germans have "superior" engineering and he uses the term "blacksmiths".
08-02-2002, 10:07 AM
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nowadays I try to buy cars I dont feel the need to mod...
or ones which come with factory backed mods.
Know it's hard to understand but there comes a time when you simply get tired of modding and just want the damn thing to work out of the box.
Know it's hard to understand but there comes a time when you simply get tired of modding and just want the damn thing to work out of the box.
08-02-2002, 10:17 AM
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The engineering buzz words you guys are looking for is ROBUST DESIGN
and no, these cars (S4's) may be robust in certain ways, but they are NOT robustly designed. Something that is robustly designed doesn't CARE as much if something IS out of spec.
Also, there are plenty of design consideratins....design for manufacturability, design for ease of service, in the realm of enigineering, we call it DFX. well...which X won out? performance and cost savings i'd say. Whoever specced the original clamps to work with the TBB, probably took an "off the shelf" production item. much cheaper, AND cheaper to "design"...
Also, there are plenty of design consideratins....design for manufacturability, design for ease of service, in the realm of enigineering, we call it DFX. well...which X won out? performance and cost savings i'd say. Whoever specced the original clamps to work with the TBB, probably took an "off the shelf" production item. much cheaper, AND cheaper to "design"...
08-02-2002, 12:07 PM
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Poor process control...
The German cars are amazing designs. The concepts and design executions are superior. That said, the assembly line processes leave something to be desired.
A robust design merely allows the assembly line greater allowances or lower process controls.
Non-robust designs can still be made and maunfactured. For example, the body panel gaps on Lexus cars have driven the industry to smaller and smaller gaps - but small gaps is not necessarily a robust design. Lexus is part of Toyota who developed the theories and practices behind almost all modern process cotrol (with a little help from an American named Demming who was shunned in the US). Lexus has set the standard for quality (via good process control) since their beginning.
Other examples of non-robust designs with excellent process control: NSX aluminum frame, VTEC engines revving to 9000 RPM, Wankle engines. Face it, the Japanese are too far ahead to catch in this game - the USA and Europeans will always be playing catch up.
Now, if we get just get a few German designers into Toyota and Honda...
A robust design merely allows the assembly line greater allowances or lower process controls.
Non-robust designs can still be made and maunfactured. For example, the body panel gaps on Lexus cars have driven the industry to smaller and smaller gaps - but small gaps is not necessarily a robust design. Lexus is part of Toyota who developed the theories and practices behind almost all modern process cotrol (with a little help from an American named Demming who was shunned in the US). Lexus has set the standard for quality (via good process control) since their beginning.
Other examples of non-robust designs with excellent process control: NSX aluminum frame, VTEC engines revving to 9000 RPM, Wankle engines. Face it, the Japanese are too far ahead to catch in this game - the USA and Europeans will always be playing catch up.
Now, if we get just get a few German designers into Toyota and Honda...
08-02-2002, 01:10 PM
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FYI, Is your reference to 'X' relate to the Shainin System, i.e. Red X?
Because I know the daughter of the company that IS the Red X. They are an engineering consultation firm and they figure out what is the "inventor" of the Red X. I'm sure if you are an engineer, you know what a Red X is. It's universally adopted, I think, and it is fascinating to tallk to her father.
For the non engineers, follow the link to read:<ul><li><a href="http://www.shainin.com">The Red X</a></li></ul>
For the non engineers, follow the link to read:<ul><li><a href="http://www.shainin.com">The Red X</a></li></ul>
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after reading about m3 blowing thier engines. how many of you had problems with blowing engine/turbo
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06-12-2002 05:42 AM