anyone have good info. on higher resolution O2 sensors
01-15-2004, 10:21 AM
#1
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anyone have good info. on higher resolution O2 sensors
to be used for tuning and A/F mixture, etc.
i recall reading somthing where a bold statement was made that using stock O2's with the 1 volt range was just not sufficient to properly tune a high horsepower engine. i.e., the 5 volt versions which seem to be available would be better suited to tuning applications.
i recall reading somthing where a bold statement was made that using stock O2's with the 1 volt range was just not sufficient to properly tune a high horsepower engine. i.e., the 5 volt versions which seem to be available would be better suited to tuning applications.
01-15-2004, 11:17 AM
#5
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Here is some info
The market just got a little more competitive, I'm going to do a quick summary.
Traditionally you had two options for a wideband/lambda O2 meter. These were the MOTEC unit and the FJO offering. These can cost you $600-1000 and up, so I'll be focusing on cheaper solutions.
The new Bosch LSU4 is a windfall to the community because it is OEM equipment on some VWs and can be had for between 30 and 60 dollars. Previously your options were generally the NGK L1H1 and the older BOSCH UEGO sensor (LSM-11?)
What is a narrowband output?
Narrowband is what your stock O2 sensor is giving you, it is of the range 0-1volts, so there is not very much room for resolution or "accuracy." Also it was engineered to save costs, and really only tells you if you are above or at stoich (14.7:1 A/F). This is not accurate enough for tuning.
Pic: http://plxdevices.com/M-200/Na...h.jpg
What is a wideband output. A more complicated 02 sensor element is used, and it can give you more usable resolution, from 0-5 volts. It was also engineered to be accurate, re-calibrateably on the fly, and with less emphasis on making a mass-produced economical unit. A wideband needs a special circuit and power source to control it's delicate heating needs. This is the "wideband controller", or controller box, that you see advertized.
pic: http://www.plxdevices.com/M-20...h.jpg
How can I make use of this:
I see two main options.
Have a bung tapped into your downpipe for a second permanent O2 sensor mount. If you are planning on running the unit in the car full time. Have the ecu running off the stock O2 sensors narrowband output, and do tuning via your dedicated wideband O2 sensor and controlling unit. Once tuned, you can remove the wideband O2 sensor, and use a plug to seal the bung.
The second method is more complicated, but it is more desirable for someone like myself that uses the wideband portably to tune different cars. You remove the stock O2 sensor unit, and put the wideband sensor in it's place. Then you feed a narrowband output off of your wideband O2 sensor controller to satisfy the ecu. (The narrowband output off the wideband controller, is just the wideband info scaled down to 0-1volts.) For ease of instalation, you can have an OBD1-OBD1 "conversion/crossover" harness, instead of splicing into the customer chassis harness. Academically there may be a problem here, because when you are done tuning, and return the car to running off of the stock narrowband sensor, there might be slight inconsistencies. More research/opinion is needed on this.
Ok, on to our budget options:
Innovate Motorsports:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/
New to the market, very competitive pricing/feature list. Uses the new, cheap LSU4 sensor. Has a patent-pending calibration routine for the sensor that none of the other companies can lay claim to. Integrated LCD for displaying values. Programmable outputs (narrowband out, wideband out, whatever you want), comes with a datalogging suite, that lacks only RPM pickup at this time, and is soon to come). It's a little too big to mount, it's more of a tuner's device, but it can easily be tucked away, and use the narrowband output to drive a A/F gauge.
AEM UEGO:
http://aempower.com/product_ems.asp
Uses the BOSCH LSU4, carries the AEM name and reputation. It can control 2 wideband sensors, for V-6 or V-8 people, or any setup with 2 O2 sensors. It does not have an internal LCD, so you need to pass the output voltages to a standalone fuel managment, or to the ecu, or to an A/F gauge or to whatever datalogging setup you have. Outputs are not scriptable, they are pre-defined.
PLX-devices:
http://www.plxdevices.com/index.htm
PLX-devices is hopping on the band-wagon and adding a product to support the LSU4 sensor, their M-250 or M-300. They offer controllers with/without LCD, letting you choose your pricing option. Wideband and narrowband outputs, not scriptable. They also have a VERY helpful website, with alot of info to aid in your research, and really help you understand this topic, thanks PLX!
DIY-WB:
http://wbo2.com/
The Tech-Edge/ DIY-WB project are a bunch of very talented hobbyist who set out to build their own wideband, shocked at the prices of the FJO/MOTEC offerings. They have had an offering on the market, longer than any of the other companies presented here. They offer kits that you can assemble yourself, or pay to have assembled, they will even sell you JSUT the circuit board, and let you source all the components your self, for the real real cheapskate :cough: hobbyist. I'm going to focus on the TechEdge v2.0 because it uses the LSU4 sensor, where the TechEdge 1.x used the L1H1 sensor. 3 Inbuilt analogue logger inputs (0 to 5 Volts), 3 thermocouple (K-type) inputs and RPM input. In addition to the inputs, you have the standard narrowband and wideband outputs. Comes with a logging suite, and POSSIBLY scriptable outputs(?) info here: http://wbo2.com/sw.htm. The company also has options for LED display outputs. Altogether a very well thought out, robust product.
I'm not going to gather prices at this time. prices are available from all the URLs above, except for AEMPOWER, who'd I'd reccomend checking out ks-motorsports.com .
You are in general looking at sub 400 dollar solutions, and if you feel like assembling the DIY-WB / TechEdge kit, you're probably looking at like 250-300 dollars.
Here are some usefull links:
http://www.g-speed.com/pbh/afr-o2.html
http://www.plxdevices.com/appnotes.htm
http://hondata.com/techwidebandtuning.html
https://www.parts.com/shopping...d%3D1
Traditionally you had two options for a wideband/lambda O2 meter. These were the MOTEC unit and the FJO offering. These can cost you $600-1000 and up, so I'll be focusing on cheaper solutions.
The new Bosch LSU4 is a windfall to the community because it is OEM equipment on some VWs and can be had for between 30 and 60 dollars. Previously your options were generally the NGK L1H1 and the older BOSCH UEGO sensor (LSM-11?)
What is a narrowband output?
Narrowband is what your stock O2 sensor is giving you, it is of the range 0-1volts, so there is not very much room for resolution or "accuracy." Also it was engineered to save costs, and really only tells you if you are above or at stoich (14.7:1 A/F). This is not accurate enough for tuning.
Pic: http://plxdevices.com/M-200/Na...h.jpg
What is a wideband output. A more complicated 02 sensor element is used, and it can give you more usable resolution, from 0-5 volts. It was also engineered to be accurate, re-calibrateably on the fly, and with less emphasis on making a mass-produced economical unit. A wideband needs a special circuit and power source to control it's delicate heating needs. This is the "wideband controller", or controller box, that you see advertized.
pic: http://www.plxdevices.com/M-20...h.jpg
How can I make use of this:
I see two main options.
Have a bung tapped into your downpipe for a second permanent O2 sensor mount. If you are planning on running the unit in the car full time. Have the ecu running off the stock O2 sensors narrowband output, and do tuning via your dedicated wideband O2 sensor and controlling unit. Once tuned, you can remove the wideband O2 sensor, and use a plug to seal the bung.
The second method is more complicated, but it is more desirable for someone like myself that uses the wideband portably to tune different cars. You remove the stock O2 sensor unit, and put the wideband sensor in it's place. Then you feed a narrowband output off of your wideband O2 sensor controller to satisfy the ecu. (The narrowband output off the wideband controller, is just the wideband info scaled down to 0-1volts.) For ease of instalation, you can have an OBD1-OBD1 "conversion/crossover" harness, instead of splicing into the customer chassis harness. Academically there may be a problem here, because when you are done tuning, and return the car to running off of the stock narrowband sensor, there might be slight inconsistencies. More research/opinion is needed on this.
Ok, on to our budget options:
Innovate Motorsports:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/
New to the market, very competitive pricing/feature list. Uses the new, cheap LSU4 sensor. Has a patent-pending calibration routine for the sensor that none of the other companies can lay claim to. Integrated LCD for displaying values. Programmable outputs (narrowband out, wideband out, whatever you want), comes with a datalogging suite, that lacks only RPM pickup at this time, and is soon to come). It's a little too big to mount, it's more of a tuner's device, but it can easily be tucked away, and use the narrowband output to drive a A/F gauge.
AEM UEGO:
http://aempower.com/product_ems.asp
Uses the BOSCH LSU4, carries the AEM name and reputation. It can control 2 wideband sensors, for V-6 or V-8 people, or any setup with 2 O2 sensors. It does not have an internal LCD, so you need to pass the output voltages to a standalone fuel managment, or to the ecu, or to an A/F gauge or to whatever datalogging setup you have. Outputs are not scriptable, they are pre-defined.
PLX-devices:
http://www.plxdevices.com/index.htm
PLX-devices is hopping on the band-wagon and adding a product to support the LSU4 sensor, their M-250 or M-300. They offer controllers with/without LCD, letting you choose your pricing option. Wideband and narrowband outputs, not scriptable. They also have a VERY helpful website, with alot of info to aid in your research, and really help you understand this topic, thanks PLX!
DIY-WB:
http://wbo2.com/
The Tech-Edge/ DIY-WB project are a bunch of very talented hobbyist who set out to build their own wideband, shocked at the prices of the FJO/MOTEC offerings. They have had an offering on the market, longer than any of the other companies presented here. They offer kits that you can assemble yourself, or pay to have assembled, they will even sell you JSUT the circuit board, and let you source all the components your self, for the real real cheapskate :cough: hobbyist. I'm going to focus on the TechEdge v2.0 because it uses the LSU4 sensor, where the TechEdge 1.x used the L1H1 sensor. 3 Inbuilt analogue logger inputs (0 to 5 Volts), 3 thermocouple (K-type) inputs and RPM input. In addition to the inputs, you have the standard narrowband and wideband outputs. Comes with a logging suite, and POSSIBLY scriptable outputs(?) info here: http://wbo2.com/sw.htm. The company also has options for LED display outputs. Altogether a very well thought out, robust product.
I'm not going to gather prices at this time. prices are available from all the URLs above, except for AEMPOWER, who'd I'd reccomend checking out ks-motorsports.com .
You are in general looking at sub 400 dollar solutions, and if you feel like assembling the DIY-WB / TechEdge kit, you're probably looking at like 250-300 dollars.
Here are some usefull links:
http://www.g-speed.com/pbh/afr-o2.html
http://www.plxdevices.com/appnotes.htm
http://hondata.com/techwidebandtuning.html
https://www.parts.com/shopping...d%3D1
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I have some free time over the weekend, so I'll try you then.
01-15-2004, 05:57 PM
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We offer a very high resolution narrow band on our piggyback kits...
It is very very accurate and our piggyback gives out dead on accurate air fuel ratios with this sensor inline.(as measured against our wideband) The beauty of this sensor is its on the car all the time and you can view the data all the time. when we are tuning however we use a wideband. The narrow band sensor gives out the same WOT data as the wideband but jumps around too much to tune the part throttle maps as quickly as a wide band. This narrow band sensor we use is used for lambda calibration and motorsports tuning where a 0-1 volt sensor is mandatory it is also lead tolerable.