My poopy colored stoptechs
08-01-2006, 04:36 PM
#46
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Re: Colored StopTech calipers
Hi, all. I sent SpartanS4 a message off line, but just wanted to follow up here, addressing some issues publicly. Of much greater concern to StopTech than the caliper color issue is the hat corrosion cracking. From the style of these hats, they are about three years old, maybe more, as that's when we stopped making hats with the scallops in them. The corrosion cracking in road salt regions is well known; we've even publicized it here: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/faq_corrosion.shtml. I'm told the alloys we now use are more resistant to this process than those we used a few years ago, but the advice about zinc rotors in road salt environments is still to be adhered to. The caveat is that if using the car on the track, non-plated rotors provide better performance.
In this case, it looks like the zinc coating on SpartanS4's rotors, which is a sacrificial substitute for corrosion of the other materials present, has been consumed (given enough salty winters, this is expected) and allowed the rotors to rust outside the pad annulus on the rotor.
Even in non-corrosive conditions, hat wear is a normal process, particularly on track and race cars. The aluminum depends on its heat treat condition for its mechanical properties, and putting it next to iron that's glowing red for long enough does begin to affect those, softening the metal. The holes in the hat can become loose, and require the hat to be replaced. This is considered normal and expected in racing.
Both the age of this system and the result indicate that these calipers were a clearcoated paint system. The dark copper color seems to have been the clearcoat. Since that time, we have changed to a non-clearcoat silver, and the color change goes bronze and a lighter brown, not the candied look these calipers have. Still, we strongly recommend black calipers for racing or track use. Red is the best of the non-black choices, but still changes after about a cumulative hour above 450F. Silver, blue, yellow and gold are considered for show and street only.
I noticed one comment about having checked brake temps with a pyrometer and seeing 800. I think there was some confusion between rotor temperature, which may peak well over 1000F on the track, and caliper bulk temperature.
Given the mass, weight distribution and speed potential of this car, the 355mm kit, or even 355/328 four-wheel kit as JoshD uses, would be a better recommendation than the 332 front only kit. I'm guessing SpartanS4 started out with a milder setup and has gradually evolved it to be really fast as the modding bug kept on biting. Comparing the cost of a four-wheel kit to the total of all the other mods listed makes it appear fairly reasonable.
Our Grand-Am Cup race drivers talk about the competitive advantage our brakes provide them all the time. They're running 332 front kits and stock rears, but that's with BMW M3 and 350Z, which are less nose-heavy and let the rear tires (brakes) do a lot more work. The M3 is said to be around 2900 lb and 385 hp, and the very well-made ducting systems developed for those cars are critical to their success. A heavily-modified S4 is asking its front brakes to do massively more work on the track. A 332 kit will always be challenged in this application, and an owner should look into ducting options. We also have titanium plates available that can reduce the amount of heat radiated into the caliper body from the pad.
By the way, the six-piston system is only for 355 rotors. There is no caliper upgrade for the 332 rotors.
I hope this helps.
As usual, anyone can contact our Technical Service Manager, Matt Weiss, at 310/325-4799 x105 for specific help.
Take care,
Dan
In this case, it looks like the zinc coating on SpartanS4's rotors, which is a sacrificial substitute for corrosion of the other materials present, has been consumed (given enough salty winters, this is expected) and allowed the rotors to rust outside the pad annulus on the rotor.
Even in non-corrosive conditions, hat wear is a normal process, particularly on track and race cars. The aluminum depends on its heat treat condition for its mechanical properties, and putting it next to iron that's glowing red for long enough does begin to affect those, softening the metal. The holes in the hat can become loose, and require the hat to be replaced. This is considered normal and expected in racing.
Both the age of this system and the result indicate that these calipers were a clearcoated paint system. The dark copper color seems to have been the clearcoat. Since that time, we have changed to a non-clearcoat silver, and the color change goes bronze and a lighter brown, not the candied look these calipers have. Still, we strongly recommend black calipers for racing or track use. Red is the best of the non-black choices, but still changes after about a cumulative hour above 450F. Silver, blue, yellow and gold are considered for show and street only.
I noticed one comment about having checked brake temps with a pyrometer and seeing 800. I think there was some confusion between rotor temperature, which may peak well over 1000F on the track, and caliper bulk temperature.
Given the mass, weight distribution and speed potential of this car, the 355mm kit, or even 355/328 four-wheel kit as JoshD uses, would be a better recommendation than the 332 front only kit. I'm guessing SpartanS4 started out with a milder setup and has gradually evolved it to be really fast as the modding bug kept on biting. Comparing the cost of a four-wheel kit to the total of all the other mods listed makes it appear fairly reasonable.
Our Grand-Am Cup race drivers talk about the competitive advantage our brakes provide them all the time. They're running 332 front kits and stock rears, but that's with BMW M3 and 350Z, which are less nose-heavy and let the rear tires (brakes) do a lot more work. The M3 is said to be around 2900 lb and 385 hp, and the very well-made ducting systems developed for those cars are critical to their success. A heavily-modified S4 is asking its front brakes to do massively more work on the track. A 332 kit will always be challenged in this application, and an owner should look into ducting options. We also have titanium plates available that can reduce the amount of heat radiated into the caliper body from the pad.
By the way, the six-piston system is only for 355 rotors. There is no caliper upgrade for the 332 rotors.
I hope this helps.
As usual, anyone can contact our Technical Service Manager, Matt Weiss, at 310/325-4799 x105 for specific help.
Take care,
Dan
08-18-2006, 06:45 PM
#47
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Red turns brown and black develops a gray chalky haze. You can't win. My Alcon's have
transformed themselves into the Lexus Gold Package.
For those of you about to jump in and say "my Stoptechs or my Alcons are perfect!", you aren't driving hard enough, period. Not that it's a bad thing, but like the S4, my R32 is a LOT of car to slow down, even on it's diet.
Ok poseurs, let's hear about how perfect your calipers are when you park outside Taven On Rush! Good use of a track set up.
For those of you about to jump in and say "my Stoptechs or my Alcons are perfect!", you aren't driving hard enough, period. Not that it's a bad thing, but like the S4, my R32 is a LOT of car to slow down, even on it's diet.
Ok poseurs, let's hear about how perfect your calipers are when you park outside Taven On Rush! Good use of a track set up.
08-18-2006, 07:05 PM
#48
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Don, how can you help Josh in this situation where you clearly admit a product design flaw? While a
little bit of good PR goes a LONG way on this particular public forum, there are of course avenues of recourse/reimbursement you can also pursue as a manufacturer if cost is a concern. (Which I highly doubt.)(Unless your company never purchased miscellaneous professional liability for errors and ommissions.)
What's of utmost importance at this point is taking care of the customer and making certain you/your company acts swiftly before Josh places himself in a potentially dangerous situation during the normal course of vehicle operation and further expose your company's assets. (Products Liability/professional liability policies aside.)
As respects your website link in your post above, I think you're well aware that does not excuse your liability in this situation. Given the dynamics of the vehicle, it sounds like Josh may have been given bad advice when he purchased the brake set. Maybe through you or perhaps through an approved dealer of yours?
In a day and age of bad customer service, I would love to know how Stoptech responds to this dangerous situation.
Thanks!!!
What's of utmost importance at this point is taking care of the customer and making certain you/your company acts swiftly before Josh places himself in a potentially dangerous situation during the normal course of vehicle operation and further expose your company's assets. (Products Liability/professional liability policies aside.)
As respects your website link in your post above, I think you're well aware that does not excuse your liability in this situation. Given the dynamics of the vehicle, it sounds like Josh may have been given bad advice when he purchased the brake set. Maybe through you or perhaps through an approved dealer of yours?
In a day and age of bad customer service, I would love to know how Stoptech responds to this dangerous situation.
Thanks!!!
08-19-2006, 09:57 AM
#49
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No flaw
DaveyKid,
First of all, it's Dan
It turned out Josh had already contacted us and been properly taken care of, and is now even better taken care of. There was no existing safety issue regarding the hats when my previous post was made.
I haven't gotten into it with Josh, but it's quite possible, as I suggested, that the 332 kit was appropriate for his car and his use patterns when it was sold to him. The idea that all parts of the package may need to evolve as the capabilities and mission of the vehicle change isn't a secret. Just as one might go from stock to K04s to something better as one's power goals grow, going from stock to a 332 to a 355 to a four-wheel kit shouldn't necessarily be unreasonable. Or you could just go straight to four-wheel
I would also state that the 332 kit, perhaps with a pad upgrade in certain instances, is sufficient for driving even Josh's car in complete safety on public roads. It will continue to perform far past when the stock brakes would go crying to their mommies, and nobody's suggesting that Audi has any liability for failing to include brakes that would work on the track with Josh's current state of engine and suspension tune.
-Dan
First of all, it's Dan
It turned out Josh had already contacted us and been properly taken care of, and is now even better taken care of. There was no existing safety issue regarding the hats when my previous post was made.
I haven't gotten into it with Josh, but it's quite possible, as I suggested, that the 332 kit was appropriate for his car and his use patterns when it was sold to him. The idea that all parts of the package may need to evolve as the capabilities and mission of the vehicle change isn't a secret. Just as one might go from stock to K04s to something better as one's power goals grow, going from stock to a 332 to a 355 to a four-wheel kit shouldn't necessarily be unreasonable. Or you could just go straight to four-wheel
I would also state that the 332 kit, perhaps with a pad upgrade in certain instances, is sufficient for driving even Josh's car in complete safety on public roads. It will continue to perform far past when the stock brakes would go crying to their mommies, and nobody's suggesting that Audi has any liability for failing to include brakes that would work on the track with Josh's current state of engine and suspension tune.
-Dan
08-19-2006, 02:40 PM
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Sorry Dan, it would help if I could read names better. I was basing my comments on your particular
comment where you said:
From the style of these hats, they are about three years old, maybe more, as that's when we stopped making hats with the scallops in them. The corrosion cracking in road salt regions is well known; we've even publicized it here: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/faq_corrosion.shtml
One would be inclined to believe Stoptech stopped making hats with scallops in them for a reason, perhaps the cracking issue. Only my opinion but I would construe that as a design flaw. The fact that you changed the design is practically an admission of guilt in this case.
Hey, what do I know. I guess if nothing comes of it and no one is injured, then it should just go away.
I'm glad to hear however that you took care of Josh. Can you elaborate?
From the style of these hats, they are about three years old, maybe more, as that's when we stopped making hats with the scallops in them. The corrosion cracking in road salt regions is well known; we've even publicized it here: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/faq_corrosion.shtml
One would be inclined to believe Stoptech stopped making hats with scallops in them for a reason, perhaps the cracking issue. Only my opinion but I would construe that as a design flaw. The fact that you changed the design is practically an admission of guilt in this case.
Hey, what do I know. I guess if nothing comes of it and no one is injured, then it should just go away.
I'm glad to hear however that you took care of Josh. Can you elaborate?