My Quattro Conclusions
02-08-2000, 01:27 PM
#41
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Can't see the forest amongst the trees....
The fact that you are comparing the S4 to a Suby rally car or EVO tells me that you do not understand the S4's design goals and requirements? Of course EDL is a cheaper solution for Audi. Everyone understands that - Quattro costs $1700 our cost. It is an off-the-shelf, known quantity that performs well in almost all situations that a mass-produced car will encounter on the road. How many times do I have to repeat myself?
The point I am making is that for a road car, 2 or 3 open diffs, will feel better and will provide adequate AWD performance. A Torsen in the middle improves performance and reduces EDL usage without jeopardizing feel. EDL is strictly a low-speed traction aid to supplement the open diffs. All LSD's (Torsen, Quaife, viscuous) have undesirable bind characteristics, especially when using in tandem, unless they are designed with much reduced individual load bias ratios. This unfortunately reduces the effectiveness of the center diff. Torsens in the front are downright silly unless the situation is well understood and controlled.
People who want throw LSD's everywhere on a mass-produced road car do not understand their properties.
Bob
96 A4QM
86 4KCSQM
The point I am making is that for a road car, 2 or 3 open diffs, will feel better and will provide adequate AWD performance. A Torsen in the middle improves performance and reduces EDL usage without jeopardizing feel. EDL is strictly a low-speed traction aid to supplement the open diffs. All LSD's (Torsen, Quaife, viscuous) have undesirable bind characteristics, especially when using in tandem, unless they are designed with much reduced individual load bias ratios. This unfortunately reduces the effectiveness of the center diff. Torsens in the front are downright silly unless the situation is well understood and controlled.
People who want throw LSD's everywhere on a mass-produced road car do not understand their properties.
Bob
96 A4QM
86 4KCSQM
02-08-2000, 05:52 PM
#42
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Bob - please
My fault I should have clarified my contentions
I never doubted EDL's effectiveness for 99.9% of the driver's out there...but for outright performance EDL does more harm than good...I was talking racetrack not street...I don't see Skylines with EDL...
but first....Bob...what the hell do you mean by "feel"?....In my hands the Evo/Sube's I've driven "feel" like the best 4wd cars that I've ever driven...and I ain't that happy with the S4 feel...am I the only one who becomes totally annoyed with the S4 every time I try to do a nice prolonged drift?...You keep talking in circles...and quit the damned condescending attitude.
I never doubted EDL's effectiveness for 99.9% of the driver's out there...but for outright performance EDL does more harm than good...I was talking racetrack not street...I don't see Skylines with EDL...
but first....Bob...what the hell do you mean by "feel"?....In my hands the Evo/Sube's I've driven "feel" like the best 4wd cars that I've ever driven...and I ain't that happy with the S4 feel...am I the only one who becomes totally annoyed with the S4 every time I try to do a nice prolonged drift?...You keep talking in circles...and quit the damned condescending attitude.
02-08-2000, 11:52 PM
#43
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Re: Bob - please
I owned an S4 (UK), and got rid of it after spending thousands on chip and suspension mods attempting to get the all-illusive "feel" into the car.
All the S4 is, is a very competent, rapid, straight-line cruiser.
It continued to remind me of driving on ice...couldn't feel a thing.
I've since sold it and now have a '99 Evo VI.
There is NO COMPARISON between the two cars as far as levels of handling, driver feedback and FUN are concerned.
I'm with you Bill, Quattro IS NOT what Audi market it to be, nor what MOST Audi drivers think it is.
All the S4 is, is a very competent, rapid, straight-line cruiser.
It continued to remind me of driving on ice...couldn't feel a thing.
I've since sold it and now have a '99 Evo VI.
There is NO COMPARISON between the two cars as far as levels of handling, driver feedback and FUN are concerned.
I'm with you Bill, Quattro IS NOT what Audi market it to be, nor what MOST Audi drivers think it is.
02-08-2000, 11:59 PM
#44
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Re: Do you understand the compromise? EDL, Torsen - design parameters and ignorance
The Evo VI doesn't have the S4's "road feel"?
Are you mad?
I've OWNED both cars and the S4's "road feel" is ZERO.
You have NO IDEA what is going on underneath you.
"The LSDs bind characteristics vary and are unpredictable."
What?
I have driven my Evo under all conditions and have no idea what you are referring to.
There is NOTHING unpredictable within the handling charactaristics of this car.
Where did you drive it?
To the shops?
Are you mad?
I've OWNED both cars and the S4's "road feel" is ZERO.
You have NO IDEA what is going on underneath you.
"The LSDs bind characteristics vary and are unpredictable."
What?
I have driven my Evo under all conditions and have no idea what you are referring to.
There is NOTHING unpredictable within the handling charactaristics of this car.
Where did you drive it?
To the shops?
02-09-2000, 01:22 AM
#46
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i must be out driving it then....more
I must be used to having all the wheels hunt for power and i much prefer it, sudden breaking of one wheel for me is very unnerving and as pointed out backing off stops it, but i dont like it.
I love the way all the wheels spin one after the other, if the systems good you can control the car perfectly on the corners.
i guess im not used to it and it un-nerved me !
I love the way all the wheels spin one after the other, if the systems good you can control the car perfectly on the corners.
i guess im not used to it and it un-nerved me !
02-09-2000, 01:29 AM
#47
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Did i mention my freind Alan owned a S4 and now owns a modifed EVO6.....more
and has more road feel in his indicator stalk than the S4 in its entiraty.
And i had an EVO on trial for 2 days but the boot was too small.
Oh and Alan can drive too, his QDE rating by professional drivers was near perfect so he knows what hes talking about.
pics ao my S4 and his Evo are on the Site !
And i had an EVO on trial for 2 days but the boot was too small.
Oh and Alan can drive too, his QDE rating by professional drivers was near perfect so he knows what hes talking about.
pics ao my S4 and his Evo are on the Site !
02-09-2000, 01:50 AM
#50
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So we are all in agreememtnt then
Quattro is superior to fwd or rwd but has major limitations when compared to cars that have some form of lsd and can move power wheel to wheel. It is a cheap of the shelf product designed for reps but fails badly for enthusuiasts, it is sold to the customers at a massive premium (outside US).
EDL is a very limited traction control system that tries (badly) to compensate for the open diff arrangement on the S4 by braking the spinning wheel and shuts of at 50mph (uk manual) or if the brakes heat up (all the time if you try to drive the car)
OK i now know where i stand.
Oh and bob doesnt know what hes on about.
EDL is a very limited traction control system that tries (badly) to compensate for the open diff arrangement on the S4 by braking the spinning wheel and shuts of at 50mph (uk manual) or if the brakes heat up (all the time if you try to drive the car)
OK i now know where i stand.
Oh and bob doesnt know what hes on about.