New Product: ProDiag diagnostic tool for your PalmOS powered device!!
04-28-2003, 04:22 PM
#31
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Obviously not written by you...
Why won't the ProDiag people post for themselves?
>> * Some very important measuring block data,
>> types display completely incorrect data.
> There was an incorrect temperature reporting
> equation that was fixed early last week.
No, I'm talking about a BUNCH of data types (more
than 20) which ProDiag handles completely incorrectly.
>> * Won't connect at all to a number of control
>> modules which VAG-COM connects to with no
>> problem.
> We now know of only '02 and '03 A4 airbags.
> Perhaps this is his "number of control modules".
> We are working feverishly to correct this.
> It will be correctly ASAP.
No, there is at least one other one, and it's VERY common!
Hint: It's an 03-ABS.
> Also, you may notice that ProDiag will
> connect to many problematic ECUs that
> VAG-COM does not, like older A6/S6
> instrument clusters.
What makes you think VAG-COM won't connect to those?
I have one of those clusters here, and VAG-COM and
ProDiag work about equally well on it. Both will
programs will eventually drop the session. But
since all you can do with that cluster is reset
the SRI's, both programs are useable. That cluster
is indeed a "difficult" one. Even a real VAG-1552
will do plently of packets retries with that cluster.
>> * Fault database nowhere near as complete as VAG-COM's.
> We have all 1551/52 faults that are in the current VAG
> release. As more becomes available they will be added.
If Prodiag's fault code database will only be updated
when the 1551/1552 gets updated, it could be a LONG time.
You see, the 1551/1552 tools are no longer being updated!
> Up until Ross-Tech did there last release,
> which we feel was a response to ProDiag,
Excuse me? We've been releasing improvments to VAG-COM
regularly for almost 3 years now.
Oh, and all VAG-COM customers get free software updates
for LIFE. ShadeTree has that they will be charging for
updates at some point in the future.
While we're at it, what happens if you decide to upgrade
the Palm you have Prodiag installed on to a newer/better one?
As far as I can tell, ShadeTree has no means of transferring
your software from one machine to another, so you're stuck
with one machine for life unless you want to buy another copy.
> they did not have as many DTCs as ProDiag.
Really? How many does ProDiag have? I have yet to see a
number. VAG-COM clearly displays the number it loads from
the file.
On the subject of Fault codes, please see the link below.
> This is also when they added their Autoscan feature.
We had that feature in Alpha test with a number of dealer
techs for several months before we released it.
See that's the difference between VAG-COM and Pro-Diag:
VAG-COM has been extensively tested world-wide. We know
what it doesn't work with (and we're up front about it on
our Issues page). ShadeTree doesn't know what Pro-Diag
doesn't work with. I give them a lot of credit for what
they've done, it's a good first effort, but they should
call it what it is at this point: a Beta. There is no
way that any third party VAG tool can be anything else
until it's got an installed base of several thousand users
world-wide because there are thousands of different control
modules in these cars, many of them with their own particular
nuances.
-Uwe-<ul><li><a href="http://www.ross-tech.com/misc/ProDiagFaults.html">Fault Code listing comparison VAG-COM and ProDiag</a></li></ul>
>> * Some very important measuring block data,
>> types display completely incorrect data.
> There was an incorrect temperature reporting
> equation that was fixed early last week.
No, I'm talking about a BUNCH of data types (more
than 20) which ProDiag handles completely incorrectly.
>> * Won't connect at all to a number of control
>> modules which VAG-COM connects to with no
>> problem.
> We now know of only '02 and '03 A4 airbags.
> Perhaps this is his "number of control modules".
> We are working feverishly to correct this.
> It will be correctly ASAP.
No, there is at least one other one, and it's VERY common!
Hint: It's an 03-ABS.
> Also, you may notice that ProDiag will
> connect to many problematic ECUs that
> VAG-COM does not, like older A6/S6
> instrument clusters.
What makes you think VAG-COM won't connect to those?
I have one of those clusters here, and VAG-COM and
ProDiag work about equally well on it. Both will
programs will eventually drop the session. But
since all you can do with that cluster is reset
the SRI's, both programs are useable. That cluster
is indeed a "difficult" one. Even a real VAG-1552
will do plently of packets retries with that cluster.
>> * Fault database nowhere near as complete as VAG-COM's.
> We have all 1551/52 faults that are in the current VAG
> release. As more becomes available they will be added.
If Prodiag's fault code database will only be updated
when the 1551/1552 gets updated, it could be a LONG time.
You see, the 1551/1552 tools are no longer being updated!
> Up until Ross-Tech did there last release,
> which we feel was a response to ProDiag,
Excuse me? We've been releasing improvments to VAG-COM
regularly for almost 3 years now.
Oh, and all VAG-COM customers get free software updates
for LIFE. ShadeTree has that they will be charging for
updates at some point in the future.
While we're at it, what happens if you decide to upgrade
the Palm you have Prodiag installed on to a newer/better one?
As far as I can tell, ShadeTree has no means of transferring
your software from one machine to another, so you're stuck
with one machine for life unless you want to buy another copy.
> they did not have as many DTCs as ProDiag.
Really? How many does ProDiag have? I have yet to see a
number. VAG-COM clearly displays the number it loads from
the file.
On the subject of Fault codes, please see the link below.
> This is also when they added their Autoscan feature.
We had that feature in Alpha test with a number of dealer
techs for several months before we released it.
See that's the difference between VAG-COM and Pro-Diag:
VAG-COM has been extensively tested world-wide. We know
what it doesn't work with (and we're up front about it on
our Issues page). ShadeTree doesn't know what Pro-Diag
doesn't work with. I give them a lot of credit for what
they've done, it's a good first effort, but they should
call it what it is at this point: a Beta. There is no
way that any third party VAG tool can be anything else
until it's got an installed base of several thousand users
world-wide because there are thousands of different control
modules in these cars, many of them with their own particular
nuances.
-Uwe-<ul><li><a href="http://www.ross-tech.com/misc/ProDiagFaults.html">Fault Code listing comparison VAG-COM and ProDiag</a></li></ul>
__________________
http://www.Ross-Tech.com
http://www.Ross-Tech.com
04-28-2003, 04:44 PM
#32
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Unlikely (more):
When we asked our own mailing list whether we should do a "port" to other platforms or keep improving the Windows version, the response was overwhelmingly to keep improving the Windows version. Only 9% thought we should take the time to make a Palm version.
We prefer the PC platform. One of the reasons people dislike the original VAG-1551/1552 is the very limited amount of data that can be presented on it's screen. A PDA is better, but nowhere near as good as a real PC.
Almost everyone has a PC. The PDA market is fractured. We see as many requests for Pocket-PC as we do for Palm, and the two are as incompatible as a real PC and a Mac. Not to mention the incompatibilities within the individual PDA platforms. Works with this CPU / brand of PDA, but not that..
Don't get me wrong -- I think ShadeTree's product is a great first effort. If you really want a VAG program for a Palm, by all means, buy ProDiag. I just want people who are trying to decide between the two to have all the facts so they can make fully informed decisions.
-Uwe-
We prefer the PC platform. One of the reasons people dislike the original VAG-1551/1552 is the very limited amount of data that can be presented on it's screen. A PDA is better, but nowhere near as good as a real PC.
Almost everyone has a PC. The PDA market is fractured. We see as many requests for Pocket-PC as we do for Palm, and the two are as incompatible as a real PC and a Mac. Not to mention the incompatibilities within the individual PDA platforms. Works with this CPU / brand of PDA, but not that..
Don't get me wrong -- I think ShadeTree's product is a great first effort. If you really want a VAG program for a Palm, by all means, buy ProDiag. I just want people who are trying to decide between the two to have all the facts so they can make fully informed decisions.
-Uwe-
__________________
http://www.Ross-Tech.com
http://www.Ross-Tech.com
04-28-2003, 06:11 PM
#34
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Re: Obviously not written by you...
>Why won't the ProDiag people post for themselves?
I didn't have an account [just created one], and we are not currently paid advertizers. We know product shilling is prohibited. But you are right, the message obviously was not written by Josh and shouldn't have gone out as it was. I apologize.
>> There was an incorrect temperature reporting
>> equation that was fixed early last week.
>No, I'm talking about a BUNCH of data types (more
>than 20) which ProDiag handles completely incorrectly.
Obviously, we are not aware of this. We have done extensive comparisons between the VAG 1552 and ProDiag. We have gone to great lengths to maintain fidelity in our equations - even to go so far as to preserve rounding, overflow and underflow behavior. We feel accuracy is important. If we can verify your assertion, we will certainly fix the problems in a timely manner.
>> We now know of only '02 and '03 A4 airbags.
>> Perhaps this is his "number of control modules".
>> We are working feverishly to correct this.
>> It will be correctly ASAP.
>No, there is at least one other one, and it's VERY common!
>Hint: It's an 03-ABS.
Again, we haven't observed this yet. As you well know, any complex piece of software will have bugs. The best any vendor can do is listen to their customers and address problems that occur.
For example, when we detected the erroneous behavior with the tranmission temperature equation, we fixed the problem and notified customers we knew would encounter the problem before they even observed it themselves.
>> Also, you may notice that ProDiag will
>> connect to many problematic ECUs that
>> VAG-COM does not, like older A6/S6
>> instrument clusters.
>What makes you think VAG-COM won't connect to those?
My daily driver is a 95.5 S6 with the difficult instrument cluster. Perhaps the latest high-end adapters you sell can communicate with the cluster, but the version I bought from you cannot. Or perhaps my cluster is especially ornery.
>If Prodiag's fault code database will only be updated
>when the 1551/1552 gets updated, it could be a LONG
>time. You see, the 1551/1552 tools are no longer
>being updated!
We wish to provide compatibility with the factory tools. We will continue to update our fault system list with additional data as it appears in factory tools and documentation.
Our goal is to provide a diagnostic tool with the same capabilities as the factory tool, in a convenient form-factor, with an easy-to-use interface and an affordable total cost of ownership. With PalmOS devices available for $100-$150 new, we believe people can buy one and with our software use it as a dedicated diagnostic tool.
And of course we will be paying attention to the new VAS 5052.
>Excuse me? We've been releasing improvments to
>VAG-COM regularly for almost 3 years now.
Yes you have. I bought VAG-COM a couple years ago myself. You certainly have come a long way from the product I bought. It was interesting watching VAG-COM evolve. When I first started designing ProDiag, there were a number of features I thought would really improve usability which I built into ProDiag. To your credit, you must have thought along similar lines because some of them have appeared in VAG-COM as well.
>Oh, and all VAG-COM customers get free software updates
>for LIFE. ShadeTree has that they will be charging for
>updates at some point in the future.
We have have no plans to charge for future updates. We *have* incorporated a mechanism that allows for the possibility of charging for new activation keys if we ever feel circumstances dictate it. We would only do this if we felt a certain new feature was of such a magnitude to warrant an update charge. I'm having a difficult time thinking of an example. Perhaps an extensive database of repair tips integrated into ProDiag that you could reference from the DTC list might require an extra charge. Standard enhancements and bug fixes will be available at no additional charge.
In any case, it would only be a upgrade charge to existing customers, not the full purchase price. I believe you sell add-ons and upgrades for an additional cost too.
>While we're at it, what happens if you decide to upgrade
>the Palm you have Prodiag installed on to a newer/better
>one? As far as I can tell, ShadeTree has no means of
>transferring your software from one machine to another,
>so you're stuck with one machine for life unless you want
>to buy another copy.
The nature of a PDA makes a sophisticated transfer scheme like you provide unworkable. Though I agree, it is a very nice feature.
I remember when I bought VAG-COM, installed it on a laptop only to have the laptop's display die the next day. You did not have your current transfer system in place, yet you were kind enough to provide new codes for my replacement laptop. We too are not unreasonable people.
>> they did not have as many DTCs as ProDiag.
>Really? How many does ProDiag have? I have yet to see a
>number. VAG-COM clearly displays the number it loads
>from the file.
I suppose it depends on how you count fault codes. As you know every fault displayed is made up of multiple components. I just remember spot checking VAG-COM at one point and noticed it was missing a number of codes found in the 1552. No doubt you have improved things since I performed the check a couple months ago.
I had to do a bunch of cutting and pasting here. I've tried to maintain proper attributions. >>'s are from the post by Josh, >'s are from Uwe and the lines without >'s are from me.
mike
I didn't have an account [just created one], and we are not currently paid advertizers. We know product shilling is prohibited. But you are right, the message obviously was not written by Josh and shouldn't have gone out as it was. I apologize.
>> There was an incorrect temperature reporting
>> equation that was fixed early last week.
>No, I'm talking about a BUNCH of data types (more
>than 20) which ProDiag handles completely incorrectly.
Obviously, we are not aware of this. We have done extensive comparisons between the VAG 1552 and ProDiag. We have gone to great lengths to maintain fidelity in our equations - even to go so far as to preserve rounding, overflow and underflow behavior. We feel accuracy is important. If we can verify your assertion, we will certainly fix the problems in a timely manner.
>> We now know of only '02 and '03 A4 airbags.
>> Perhaps this is his "number of control modules".
>> We are working feverishly to correct this.
>> It will be correctly ASAP.
>No, there is at least one other one, and it's VERY common!
>Hint: It's an 03-ABS.
Again, we haven't observed this yet. As you well know, any complex piece of software will have bugs. The best any vendor can do is listen to their customers and address problems that occur.
For example, when we detected the erroneous behavior with the tranmission temperature equation, we fixed the problem and notified customers we knew would encounter the problem before they even observed it themselves.
>> Also, you may notice that ProDiag will
>> connect to many problematic ECUs that
>> VAG-COM does not, like older A6/S6
>> instrument clusters.
>What makes you think VAG-COM won't connect to those?
My daily driver is a 95.5 S6 with the difficult instrument cluster. Perhaps the latest high-end adapters you sell can communicate with the cluster, but the version I bought from you cannot. Or perhaps my cluster is especially ornery.
>If Prodiag's fault code database will only be updated
>when the 1551/1552 gets updated, it could be a LONG
>time. You see, the 1551/1552 tools are no longer
>being updated!
We wish to provide compatibility with the factory tools. We will continue to update our fault system list with additional data as it appears in factory tools and documentation.
Our goal is to provide a diagnostic tool with the same capabilities as the factory tool, in a convenient form-factor, with an easy-to-use interface and an affordable total cost of ownership. With PalmOS devices available for $100-$150 new, we believe people can buy one and with our software use it as a dedicated diagnostic tool.
And of course we will be paying attention to the new VAS 5052.
>Excuse me? We've been releasing improvments to
>VAG-COM regularly for almost 3 years now.
Yes you have. I bought VAG-COM a couple years ago myself. You certainly have come a long way from the product I bought. It was interesting watching VAG-COM evolve. When I first started designing ProDiag, there were a number of features I thought would really improve usability which I built into ProDiag. To your credit, you must have thought along similar lines because some of them have appeared in VAG-COM as well.
>Oh, and all VAG-COM customers get free software updates
>for LIFE. ShadeTree has that they will be charging for
>updates at some point in the future.
We have have no plans to charge for future updates. We *have* incorporated a mechanism that allows for the possibility of charging for new activation keys if we ever feel circumstances dictate it. We would only do this if we felt a certain new feature was of such a magnitude to warrant an update charge. I'm having a difficult time thinking of an example. Perhaps an extensive database of repair tips integrated into ProDiag that you could reference from the DTC list might require an extra charge. Standard enhancements and bug fixes will be available at no additional charge.
In any case, it would only be a upgrade charge to existing customers, not the full purchase price. I believe you sell add-ons and upgrades for an additional cost too.
>While we're at it, what happens if you decide to upgrade
>the Palm you have Prodiag installed on to a newer/better
>one? As far as I can tell, ShadeTree has no means of
>transferring your software from one machine to another,
>so you're stuck with one machine for life unless you want
>to buy another copy.
The nature of a PDA makes a sophisticated transfer scheme like you provide unworkable. Though I agree, it is a very nice feature.
I remember when I bought VAG-COM, installed it on a laptop only to have the laptop's display die the next day. You did not have your current transfer system in place, yet you were kind enough to provide new codes for my replacement laptop. We too are not unreasonable people.
>> they did not have as many DTCs as ProDiag.
>Really? How many does ProDiag have? I have yet to see a
>number. VAG-COM clearly displays the number it loads
>from the file.
I suppose it depends on how you count fault codes. As you know every fault displayed is made up of multiple components. I just remember spot checking VAG-COM at one point and noticed it was missing a number of codes found in the 1552. No doubt you have improved things since I performed the check a couple months ago.
I had to do a bunch of cutting and pasting here. I've tried to maintain proper attributions. >>'s are from the post by Josh, >'s are from Uwe and the lines without >'s are from me.
mike
04-29-2003, 05:26 AM
#36
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Well, first attempt failed. We are not sure if it is because we have a serial sync cord or...
because the null modem adapter messed up. The saga continues. I will report once we have success/abject failure.
04-29-2003, 09:20 AM
#37
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I have it working with my iPaq.
The iPaq serial cable is a null-modem, so you need another null-modem to swap the pins back. This is on a 2000 TT using an OBDTool (VAG-COM clone) adapter.
04-29-2003, 09:51 AM
#39
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The iPaq serial cable you are using, is that the serial sync cord or an RS-232 adapter?
I think it is the serial sync cord that needs the null modem adapter. Did you try to get it to work with the cord that comes with the VAG-COM?