DeutschDriver

so let me 'splain why i'm even interested.

i live in LA where traffic sucks. i'd like a slush for daily and keep the S (and continue to mod) for fun / track / nice car purposes. the second car i'd be looking at would need to be reasonably comfortable, handle well, have decent power but still get good economy. an auto / dsg / smg was really at the top of the list for traffic and comfort reasons.

anyhow, about the car..

fully loaded dsg model. the interior is really nice, well appointed and overall typical vag design, layout, and proper fit and finish. the chassis felt tight and well constructed. blah blah blah...

what did i really think?

meh.

aside from the front drive issue (i'm never goin' back there) i just had trouble maintaining excitement for the dsg thing. i was totally stoked to drive the dsg. once i got in and started playing with it though i felt like i was playing a video game... and for the same reason that i suck at car video games (aside from lack of practice) i felt totally disconnected from the driving experience. sure i knew that when i pushed the upshift button it would grab the next cog, but i never really knew when or exactly how the power would transfer. it was awkward and the excitement about dsg was lost after the first 5 minutes. really, after a short while i almost longed for a traditional slushbox auto for the reason of reduced cost, complexity and unknown technological "teething" issues.

which brought me to another question: what the heck is the point of dsg in a road car? the main benefit of the dual clutch is for the seamless transfer of power that should in theory make it easier to drive big HP near the limit and continue to up / downshift without upsetting the chassis. ok, fine. in the road going version there are a few problems...

1) stop and go. the dual clutch setup only works if the computer can accurately predict what gear you'll need next (up or down, basically). while driving 10/10ths i'm sure that it can down just that. if you enter a turn at the top of 4th and start to apply the brakes the computer knows you're going to select 3rd and not 5th. in that scenario it can grab the right cog and be ready to engage the gear in a seamless fashion wayyy faster than humanly possible. so now translate this to stop and go. basically, the tranny is nearly always finding itself stuck in the wrong gear. if you're puttering along in 3rd and in a scenario where it might upshift to 4th (with 4th preselected) but you then need to floor it to avoid traffic, you have to wait for the tranny to downshift and *then* get the power you need .5 seconds earlier. this might now sound like much, but in my 5 mile test drive i managed to confuse the tranny with just such a "kick down" request on more than one occasion. the end result is a safety issue.

2) its expensive! bmw SMG (e46) transmission services are running about $10k (now that they're coming out of warranty). that system features similar technology but with only one clutch and one gear selector. dsg features two clutches and double the hardware. i'm shaken in my boots just thinking about what that might cost to service.

3) you don't really know when the tranny is going to engage the engine. this has mostly to do with performance driving at the limit. say you're trying to throttle steer through a turn. with a m/t you know that you can count on the engine to provide constant power or engine braking because of the locking configuration of the clutch. with any electronic clutch system (dsg or smg) you're never really sure what the computer is thinking. does it take lateral forces into account? i don't know. notice that the porsche cup cars all feature sequential shifting *with* a manual clutch that must be used for standing starts *and* downshifting, but not upshifting. something tells me that that additional drivetrain control is important. next is the issue of rev limiters. i'm not 100% about smg, but i experienced the dsg upshift for me when i got near redline. wtf? maybe i wanted to stay at the top of 2nd because i knew i was about to enter a turn where i'd need the engine braking. huh? yeah. don't know what to do about that. imho the only way this system could work is if it let you bounce off of rev limiters and if the clutch stayed 100% locked until the engine was about to stall before disengaging or automatically selecting a lower gear.

ok, after reviewing points one and two, (for street purposes, #3 is a touch too extreme) you have to consider a traditional torque converter auto again. they're becoming more and more efficient these days and the newest models sometimes feature more gears than any manual (mbz 7 speed anyone?) they are also shifting faster and faster and can shift quite firmly if programmed to do so, also some tcu's in performance cars work with the ecu to e-blip the throttle for a perfect torque converter-tranny downshift! I've played with this in the '06 350Z and I must say that it works quite well. The only downside I could find is that it wouldn't allow me to downshift for engine braking quite as early as I'd like. (2nd wasn't available until I was going about 50mph) factoring in that we're talking about a street car and the whole thing starts to make more sense again...

So in conclusion I feel that the dsg setup with either be shelved and history will prove it to be a short lived trend - or - they'll retune it to correct the problems I sited in point #3 (while improving gear selection speed, point #1 still stands). If it's improved (and why shouldn't it be) I'd expect that it'll be reserved for the highest performance cars and it'll never replace the torque converter. Either way, I'd say it needs to go back in the oven... It's not quite done.

Oh, and a final conclusion about the GTI? Factoring out the 1.5k premium for the DSG I still feel that its about 7k too expensive. The amount of road noise on smooth asphalt at highway speeds is unacceptable for such a porky (read: should be well-insulated) $30k car. For 28.5k (and the aforementioned curb weight) I want a turbo power plant with 250+ hp with AWD and less road noise.

So I'm I the only one who isn't so crazy about dsg. Also, has anyone else driven the GTI and felt the same?

Sound off!

-S

PS: wtf is up with not making a LSD a factory option? (or really included, considering my rant about price)

<img src="http://vortex3.rely.net/artman/uploads/dsg_750.jpg">

^^^ dsg cut away

PKBlu::E30 Hunt

I was figuring on it being in the $21k-22k range. Not too bad considering I bought a GTI 1.8T in '00 for $19k and it was no where near the car the new one is.

nord1899

I dunno, I drove the A3 2.0T DSG and thought it was kick ***

Cameron

DSG is cheaper and less complex than a traditional autobox.

Even the new six-speed automatics and high-yield automatics (for the Touareg, Continental GT, Phaeton, Flying Spur, etc.) which are built in asia (instead of using ZF transmissions from Switzerland) are much more expensive on a per-unit and on a development basis than DSG.

DSG is faster, cheaper, easier to maintain, and less complex than a modern autobox.

TwinTurboTerror

Wow, long rant. You raise some legitimate concerns about service costs though. Never thought of that

KOpork

We had one in the showroom no roof or major goodies. $22K. I am thinking of picking one up too.

DeutschDriver

me thinks you're just trying to stir the pot.

this from the guy who skipped out on the manumatic lambo in favor of a traditional 6 speed? yeah, right. i'm calling bull****.

nyet

especially #1 (a computer can never predict what you want before you want it).

but like cameron said, as a replacement for an auto, if the price comes down, and it proves more reliable in the long run, DSG will win.

I am skeptical like you though, i think DSG will always be more expensive (and complex) than a slushbox.

DeutschDriver

i don't see how it could be superior to a traditional slushbox.

also, the creep / hill hold feature sounds like murder on the clutch.

and my final thought... what if you need to skip a gear or two? ie you're crusing in 6th and floor it. the kick down request (depending on speed) will either ask for 5th, 4th, 3rd or 2nd. that means you've got a 50% chance that its going to ask for a cog thats on the same side of the gearbox, thus resulting in an even slower shift.