Still need brakes, will go with a great front kit and a okay rear kit (anyone have a powder coated
08-10-2006, 10:06 PM
#11
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Very happy with my Brembo GT I got recently.
I got mine for under $2500, red, slotted. I just saw that PureMS has their GT kit for under $2500 as well, AWE still $3195. Check it out.
08-15-2006, 04:10 PM
#12
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Re: so where do Brembos stand in relation to Stoptech & Alcon.....pricing aside
I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, or offending any sponsors. It's just odd to hear questions like that.
Pricing aside should totally eliminate at least "one of the companies you mentioned". Without the pricing advantage, their name would probably cease to exist in any comparisons against the other two.
If you already know which company I'm talking about than that should prove something.
If you don't know who I'm talking about, then I'll reiterate that <U>I'm not trying to offend anyone so I won't be using their name</U>.
When it comes to brakes I can think of a few companies that are viewed as "expensive".
But for very good reasons. You will get what you pay for.
When you take that into consideration, think about who's cheaper and try to figure out where the savings comes from. For any other industry, trying to be a "comparable" product and less expensive, means that you will be cutting corners somewhere.
Examine that and then come back to the question.
There will in fact be less choices at that point.
Pricing aside should totally eliminate at least "one of the companies you mentioned". Without the pricing advantage, their name would probably cease to exist in any comparisons against the other two.
If you already know which company I'm talking about than that should prove something.
If you don't know who I'm talking about, then I'll reiterate that <U>I'm not trying to offend anyone so I won't be using their name</U>.
When it comes to brakes I can think of a few companies that are viewed as "expensive".
But for very good reasons. You will get what you pay for.
When you take that into consideration, think about who's cheaper and try to figure out where the savings comes from. For any other industry, trying to be a "comparable" product and less expensive, means that you will be cutting corners somewhere.
Examine that and then come back to the question.
There will in fact be less choices at that point.
08-15-2006, 08:58 PM
#13
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point taken, but pricing doesn't only reflect the quality of materials & of R&D
It also reflects marketing. Brembo has much more brand recognition than most, so it's possible they could charge more for less and still sell plenty of kits. Not saying that's the case, just making a point.
08-16-2006, 09:51 AM
#14
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Re: point taken, but pricing doesn't only reflect the quality of materials & of R&D
You are correct. A lot of companies are built on marketing and their pricing is geared towards supporting that.
Brembo has always been much more focused on the technology rather than marketing. The name recognition comes from a long (30+ year) history in professional racing and OEM development. It's the new comers who have relied much more on creative marketing and strategic positioning of products with sponsorships to make a name for themsleves.
( I'm not sure how much information I can offer without being considered "advertising" or breaking any forum rules )
Brembo has always been much more focused on the technology rather than marketing. The name recognition comes from a long (30+ year) history in professional racing and OEM development. It's the new comers who have relied much more on creative marketing and strategic positioning of products with sponsorships to make a name for themsleves.
( I'm not sure how much information I can offer without being considered "advertising" or breaking any forum rules )
08-16-2006, 10:31 PM
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I think many underestimate the technology that goes into rotors.
We know that STaSIS and StopTech have had issues in this area. Brembo has few years of engineering advantage there.
08-19-2006, 11:21 AM
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Re: so where do Brembos stand in relation to Stoptech
Gary,
I'll take this bait.
"If you already know which company I'm talking about than that should prove something."
Yeah, it proves that StopTech's standard price of $1995 for a 332mm front kit for an S4 is $900 less than the retail price for your company's front kit, and people here are well aware of that. So obviously you're talking about StopTech with the rest of your comments.
The only thing you've been able to suggest is that it must not be as good because it costs less for the end user. How about coming up with some technical points? How about talking about distribution structures?
How about talking about performance test wins?
http://www.stoptech.com/proven_technology/test_wins.shtml
-Dan
I'll take this bait.
"If you already know which company I'm talking about than that should prove something."
Yeah, it proves that StopTech's standard price of $1995 for a 332mm front kit for an S4 is $900 less than the retail price for your company's front kit, and people here are well aware of that. So obviously you're talking about StopTech with the rest of your comments.
The only thing you've been able to suggest is that it must not be as good because it costs less for the end user. How about coming up with some technical points? How about talking about distribution structures?
How about talking about performance test wins?
http://www.stoptech.com/proven_technology/test_wins.shtml
-Dan
08-19-2006, 11:34 AM
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StopTech rotor technology
"We know that STaSIS and StopTech have had issues in this area."
Tomasz,
Can you elaborate? Is there a particular incident of a StopTech rotor having an "issue" that you're thinking of? Has Gary shown you the results of tests of Brembo rotors against StopTech rotors? Has Gary claimed that Brembo has undertaken such testing?
There is a tremendous amount of technology in rotors. Not only in the vane design, which many Audiworld readers may be aware of, but also in the composition and foundering process of the iron, as well as the design of the slots or holes.
StopTech isn't big enough to own our own foundry. We don't sell enough rotors to keep one busy. But neither is, for example, Stasis, and nobody here seems to think that reflects badly on their product. StopTech's racing rotors are foundered (cast) by Pilenga, S.p.a. in Italy. Pilenga worked with us to develop a unique alloy and process controls to create what our testing shows to be among the most crack-resistant brake rotor materials in the world.
I'm confident Gary can provide no concrete evidence to prove his rotors are any more durable than the product currently supplied by StopTech. The fact that ours cost a whole lot less for end users by itself makes them better, not worse.
-Dan
Tomasz,
Can you elaborate? Is there a particular incident of a StopTech rotor having an "issue" that you're thinking of? Has Gary shown you the results of tests of Brembo rotors against StopTech rotors? Has Gary claimed that Brembo has undertaken such testing?
There is a tremendous amount of technology in rotors. Not only in the vane design, which many Audiworld readers may be aware of, but also in the composition and foundering process of the iron, as well as the design of the slots or holes.
StopTech isn't big enough to own our own foundry. We don't sell enough rotors to keep one busy. But neither is, for example, Stasis, and nobody here seems to think that reflects badly on their product. StopTech's racing rotors are foundered (cast) by Pilenga, S.p.a. in Italy. Pilenga worked with us to develop a unique alloy and process controls to create what our testing shows to be among the most crack-resistant brake rotor materials in the world.
I'm confident Gary can provide no concrete evidence to prove his rotors are any more durable than the product currently supplied by StopTech. The fact that ours cost a whole lot less for end users by itself makes them better, not worse.
-Dan
08-19-2006, 12:08 PM
#19
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More on rotors and suppliers in the modern world...
>Brembo manufactures their rotors and hats.
I wasn't aware Brembo had machinery in its Costa Mesa facility. When I am at work, the sound I hear coming through the wall is StopTech's machinery making hats, brackets and calipers.
>Their quality control should make these superiors to others.
Why would Brembo's quality control be inherently superior to any other company's? StopTech has achieved TUV certifications (including the Audi S4 kit), passed all U.S. federal tests and is an OE supplier to one of the world's largest automobile companies, with one of the best reputations for quality. IS, QS, etc. don't mean anything in this car company's world, because they have their own quality systems that they believe are better.
>Brembo is also using a true floating system, while others use theoretically inferior system. (Hard to tell in practice though.)
This is the second time I've read one of your posts where you wrote this. Both systems perform equally at profiding radial float (allowing the rotor to expand as it heats), which is the design intent of both mechanisms. The basis behind the claim seems to be that Brembo's "McLaren clip" has a lower spring rate in the axial direction than StopTech's Inconel cone washer, and thus provides greater axial float.
Gary is claiming an advantage in a feature that is totally secondary. Greater axial float is only of benefit on a vehicle where knockback is a problem, and there are precious few European vehicles where it is. Nissan 350Z and Subaru WRX are the posterchildren for knockback. I haven't ever seen feedback that someone took a StopTech kit off one of these cars and put on a Brembo kit, and the knockback got better.
For more information on knockback, yes, we have a white paper:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_knockback.shtml
>Others buy rotor castings and attach their hats to them.
By the reasoning of this statement, it should somehow reflect badly on Porsche that they commission a quality brake manufacturer to build calipers for them, and then they attach their cars to those parts.
StopTech located a foundry able to supply the highest available quality, and has them manufacture a unique, patented design using materials and processes unique and superior to those used for any other customer. Then we attach our hats to those parts.
>Brembo has 400 engineers. So they should produce a better products.
How many engineers does GM have?
-Dan
I wasn't aware Brembo had machinery in its Costa Mesa facility. When I am at work, the sound I hear coming through the wall is StopTech's machinery making hats, brackets and calipers.
>Their quality control should make these superiors to others.
Why would Brembo's quality control be inherently superior to any other company's? StopTech has achieved TUV certifications (including the Audi S4 kit), passed all U.S. federal tests and is an OE supplier to one of the world's largest automobile companies, with one of the best reputations for quality. IS, QS, etc. don't mean anything in this car company's world, because they have their own quality systems that they believe are better.
>Brembo is also using a true floating system, while others use theoretically inferior system. (Hard to tell in practice though.)
This is the second time I've read one of your posts where you wrote this. Both systems perform equally at profiding radial float (allowing the rotor to expand as it heats), which is the design intent of both mechanisms. The basis behind the claim seems to be that Brembo's "McLaren clip" has a lower spring rate in the axial direction than StopTech's Inconel cone washer, and thus provides greater axial float.
Gary is claiming an advantage in a feature that is totally secondary. Greater axial float is only of benefit on a vehicle where knockback is a problem, and there are precious few European vehicles where it is. Nissan 350Z and Subaru WRX are the posterchildren for knockback. I haven't ever seen feedback that someone took a StopTech kit off one of these cars and put on a Brembo kit, and the knockback got better.
For more information on knockback, yes, we have a white paper:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_knockback.shtml
>Others buy rotor castings and attach their hats to them.
By the reasoning of this statement, it should somehow reflect badly on Porsche that they commission a quality brake manufacturer to build calipers for them, and then they attach their cars to those parts.
StopTech located a foundry able to supply the highest available quality, and has them manufacture a unique, patented design using materials and processes unique and superior to those used for any other customer. Then we attach our hats to those parts.
>Brembo has 400 engineers. So they should produce a better products.
How many engineers does GM have?
-Dan
08-19-2006, 09:06 PM
#20
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There is more to a floating rotor than many people think.
I think Brembo is onto something with their McLaren washers. Here is what may happen with the washers you and STaSIS are using...
Now I do not know enough about this incident to tell, but I know this has to do with the floating rotor design.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/lrqc/msgs/81238.phtml">https://forums.audiworld.com/lrqc/msgs/81238.phtml</a</li></ul>
Now I do not know enough about this incident to tell, but I know this has to do with the floating rotor design.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/lrqc/msgs/81238.phtml">https://forums.audiworld.com/lrqc/msgs/81238.phtml</a</li></ul>