Dan Barnes@StopTech

Alex at Stasis provided good service and took care of that customer immediately.

He also noted that an engineering change has been made to Stasis' product to prevent that from happening. That change had nothing at all to do with the washer.

https://forums.audiworld.com/lrqc/msgs/81628.phtml

-Dan

BremboGuy

Hey Dan,

I was really hoping you wouldn't take offense to that post. My intention was to try and keep it a positive statement and make people aware that there is plenty of room in the market for different levels of product. When you remove pricing from the scenario you are forced to look at many more of the factors involved.

I stand firm on the fact that there are major differences in what you get for the money between most of the braking products on the market today. While there were only three companies mentioned in the original post, my comments stand for a number of others who were not mentioned, not just StopTech.

<B>QUOTE=DanBarnes@StopTech</B>
<I>"How about coming up with some technical points?"</I>

(trying desperately to find a way to respond to this question without sounding condescending)

Technical points are great for discussion purposes; But Brembo has always chosen to let the products speak for themselves. This is exactly why you won't find pages and pages of "technical white papers" on any of Brembo's websites. It's all relative to the point you are trying to prove for one specific viewpoint. And while it may sound great on "paper", many companies are finding out that it's much more difficult to actually produce the quality of product that they are great at talking about with "technical points" to back up their own theories.

We've all heard that "actions speak louder than words". I tend to base my opinions of products on this same theory.

<B>QUOTE=DanBarnes@StopTech</B>
<I>"How about talking about performance test wins?"</I>

"Performance Test <I>Wins"</I>???

Brembo products have come out on top of <B>many</B> performance tests, but even when we "win" a performance test, we understand that it's a combination of Brakes, Suspension, and Tires.

Again, even while this is much closer to the "actions speak louder than words" theory, it still has little relevance to proving who's product is better. Therefore the "win" should go to the builder of the car for selecting a "winning combination" of components rather than twisting it into a marketing campaign for the brakes alone.

In this type of "test" I would personally place more attention to how the brakes perform during the road course portion than the individual stops. But even after all of that is said, you can still argue the horsepower factor, pad selection, tire temperatures, ambient temperature on the track...blah blah blah.

The point to this whole explanation is that once again, what looks good in print doesn't always truthfully represent the product.

( <I>plus it's very difficult to discuss anything that I would consider relevant without the chance of being banned for "non-supporting advertising" or anything else people could complain about</I> )

Tomasz@Startup

and it is not a completely different design. Brembo has a completely different design.

BremboGuy

Dan,

Please stop making comparisons and claims towards Brembo products. It's your constant grouping of both companies in the same category that is confusing the consumers.

Not one part of our sales strategy or marketing message is geared towards comparing our products to anyone elses. There is a good reason for that.
We are the benchmark.

We always reccommend that people contact your company directly when they have specific questions about your products. The purpose of my posts is not to degrade the StopTech product, it is to stop you from degrading the Brembo product by using confusing or false information.

(<I>every post I make requires that I "tippy toe" around your "baiting" to avoid the risk of being banned. My intention is not to promote Brembo, but rather correct the claims and false information spread by others. Hopefully the moderators take this into consideration when they read the rest of this post</I>)

<B>QUOTE=DanBarnes@StopTech</B>
<I>I wasn't aware Brembo had machinery in its Costa Mesa facility. When I am at work, the sound I hear coming through the wall is StopTech's machinery making hats, brackets and calipers.
</I>

If you are unaware of something it would probably be wise to say nothing at all.

Are you insinuating that Brembo does not manufacture their own products??
<B>FYI</B>...Brembo manufacturers every major component in their brake systems with the exception of brake pads and braided lines. (both of which are provided only by the leading manufacturers in their segment...Braided lines being Goodridge)

If you want to discuss manufacturing abilities, production capabilities, and fulfillment I'd be glad to. I am pretty confident that you don't.

<B>QUOTE=DanBarnes@StopTech</B>
<I>Why would Brembo's quality control be inherently superior to any other company's? StopTech has achieved TUV certifications (including the Audi S4 kit), passed all U.S. federal tests and is an OE supplier to one of the world's largest automobile companies, with one of the best reputations for quality. IS, QS, etc. don't mean anything in this car company's world, because they have their own quality systems that they believe are better.</I>

I have mentioned many times before that a defining difference between Brembo and people who consider themselves to be competition is QUALITY. I'll assume that you enjoy talking about this subject for comparison purposes because it is the most difficult to prove on paper. That gives you the ability to freely make these claims without risk of finding a "self made" graph or chart proving these claims.

Fortunately the products speak for themselves and the cream usually rises to the top.
-When was the last time you heard about someone having to rebuild a Brembo caliper??
-Have you ever seen a cracked Brembo hat??
-How about unexplainable creaking noises with a Brembo kit??

Throwing around TUV and making comparisons regarding FMVSS, IS, QS ect...means very little in the overall performance or quality of a product. They are merely approvals for the processes used in manufacturing and testing of products. It's not uncommon to see many high end and low end products that both have TUV approvals. This is very common for wheel manufacturers and now apparently brake companies too.

<B>QUOTE=DanBarnes@StopTech</B>
<I>This is the second time I've read one of your posts where you wrote this. Both systems perform equally at profiding radial float (allowing the rotor to expand as it heats), which is the design intent of both mechanisms. The basis behind the claim seems to be that Brembo's "McLaren clip" has a lower spring rate in the axial direction than StopTech's Inconel cone washer, and thus provides greater axial float.

Gary is claiming an advantage in a feature that is totally secondary. Greater axial float is only of benefit on a vehicle where knockback is a problem, and there are precious few European vehicles where it is. Nissan 350Z and Subaru WRX are the posterchildren for knockback. I haven't ever seen feedback that someone took a StopTech kit off one of these cars and put on a Brembo kit, and the knockback got better. </I>

Remember when I said "If you are unaware of something it would probably be wise to say nothing at all"??

My first guess is that you do not fully understand the purpose or benefit of fully floating hardware. My second guess would be that everything you typed is based on the fact that you could not provide the same benefits and would rather make them sound inconsequesntial.
I'll let you exlain which one.

The truth is that Brembo would not have spent the R&amp;D money developing a specific hardware around a million dollar street car to accidently find a way to minimize knockback. I suggest that anyone who is interested in the difference should go through the proper channels to find out.

Too often people take StopTechs words as fact and are missguided or missinformed. Questions or concerns about Brembo should be directed to Brembo/RaceTechnologies. Questions about Stasis or StopTech or Willwood or AP or Alcon should be directed to Stasis or StopTech ot Willwood or AP or Alcon.

<B>QUOTE=DanBarnes@StopTech</B>
<I>Furthermore, StopTech's inconel washer system actually offers greater adaptability if knockback is a concern, as various assembly procedures and configurations are possible to allow varying degrees of true, unrestricted axial float. We generally consider these race-only, however, as any system that is able to provide unrestricted axial float will inevitably allow some noise. </I>

That's funny, I thought I read somewhere on your website that the kits you use in "racing" are identical to the ones you sell to the consumers. How many other "race-only variations do you really have???

Slightly off topic, Brembo is working with the SoCal Audi Club to put together a tech session that would address issues like the ones above. I believe there is a thread around here somewhere that explains how to register for that event.

Dan Barnes@StopTech

because our product is technically correct. That's the basic idea behind publishing the technical information we provide. This isn't just external, it's internal. Bob Lee invested repeatedly to have an SAE presenter come and give his braking and vehicle control seminar for StopTech employees, so everyone who works here and answers customer questions would really understand how these systems work and how our product interacts with them.

StopTech's specific viewpoint is that every vehicle must behave according to the laws of physics at all times, so we had better build brake systems that take the laws of physics into account. That is the message contained in all the technical information we publish.

As for which product set, across the whole line of upgrades for street and track day cars, is actually better, maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. I know which one you think is better, you know which one I think is better. However, I won't accept your suggestion that StopTech costs less, therefore it must not be quite as good.

There are certainly other products out there that are far inferior to anything sold by either of the companies we work for. Yes, some are even frightening. But they are not commonly discussed here at Audiworld, and you won't read or hear a StopTech employee using that fact to paint your company's products as low-quality.

You have suggested StopTech's products are inferior, but have not stated how yours are better, except by saying

"Brembo has always chosen to let the products speak for themselves."

I guess I'm okay with that. I don't expect to lose an argument with a caliper anytime soon.

-Dan

Dan Barnes@StopTech

The pictures in the post you linked to showed steel bolts threaded into anodized aluminum. The bolts were both backing out and sheared off. There was no way to tell which began first, but I'd guess the backing out, especially as the solution described by the source of those parts later in that thread is to replace the threads in the aluminum with a through-hole and a Jet Nut locking fastener.

StopTech has never had a problem with drive pin bolts backing out. They are steel bolts in steel pins, torqued and Loc-Tited. Our Inconel washers are made for us by our supplier, and that spec is not sold to any other company.

We are not afraid to talk about hat corrosion in salt environments, as the topic is addressed on our web site.

But that has zero to do with the differences between another manufacturer's spring clip and our conical washer.

-Dan

Dan Barnes@StopTech

QUOTE=BremboGuy
"It's your constant grouping of both companies in the same category that is confusing the consumers."

StopTech makes no claim about its capabilities versus those of your company based on size, volume of production, number of engineers, R&amp;D spending or number of OE vehicle applications - as a company. And we never have. You can have all those statistics. They're yours. What is hard to swallow is the insinuation that because we are smaller and our products generally cost less, our product cannot possibly be in the same category as the product you make that is broadly similar in mission.

QUOTE=BremboGuy
"While everything that your company puts in print is geared towards taking the decision making process away from the consumer"

You've used this language before, but I don't understand how we could possibly do this. Ultimately, the consumer buys the product he or she believes will provide the greatest satisfaction, based on a variey of factors. Nothing we could do or say will ever change that.

QUOTE=BremboGuy
"I have mentioned many times before that a defining difference between Brembo and people who consider themselves to be competition is QUALITY. I'll assume that you enjoy talking about this subject for comparison purposes because it is the most difficult to prove on paper."

Actually, we usually start off by talking about performance, because it's absolutely objective and easier for most people to measure.

QUOTE=BremboGuy
"Remember when I said "If you are unaware of something it would probably be wise to say nothing at all"??"

So does this mean you have customer feedback that installing one of your company's kits on a WRX or 350Z reduced the knockback they had experienced with one of StopTech's kits installed immediately prior on the same vehicle? That's what I said I was unaware of, that you're responding to with the preceding sentence.

I don't make a habit of bringing up a competitor by name, unless a direct comparison is made between StopTech's product (even if only by describing well-known characteristic features) and the competitor's product. Then I'm not shy, as it's best to let everyone know exactly what is being discussed.

For example, further up this thread, Tomasz attempts to link a failure of one of our mutual competitor's products to StopTech based on a way in which it is more like our product than like yours. But the failure clearly has nothing to do with the way in which that product is similar to ours. I personally don't think that's very cool. However, I should add that I have privately communicated with Tomasz in the past few weeks, and he seems like a decent guy. I'd like to think if I ever meet him, we'll be friendly.

An Audiworld regular is likely to (should) be aware that Tomasz is in the business of selling your product and will also soon be taking a StopTech BBK off his car in favor of yours. He has not posted any results yet that I have seen, nor expressed any dissatisfaction with the StopTech product, apart from wishing we had included a higher-temperature pad than Axxis ULT. However, when describing his intentions earlier in another thread, he made this same comparison of Brembo vs. StopTech floating hardware, there also without any technical details to back up the assertion. And you have made the arguments in some detail on other forums. That is why, even though StopTech was not named in the passage I responded to, I felt justified in jumping in. Perhaps in so doing I only separated StopTech from other companies that may in fact have inferior floating hardware.

My post, and the link provided in it, did far more to inform readers about knockback than anything you have written here. If you choose to challenge my understanding of technical issues, please do so with technical arguments.

QUOTE=BremboGuy
"That's funny, I thought I read somewhere on your website that the kits you use in "racing" are identical to the ones you sell to the consumers."

Alternate assembly in the field of identical parts to solve a problem on an as-needed basis isn't a radical difference. You'd have been on firmer ground claiming that the statement is somehow false because race teams use race friction, not Axxis ULT. That's an actual different part.

The StopTech brakes that win in World Challenge and Grand-Am Cup (="racing") are absolutely relevant to what we sell for street cars.

-Dan

BremboGuy

Is it possible that he was referring to the "source of the problem", rather than the specific failure itself???

The source of the problem being that the "spring washer" used may not allow for sufficient expansion and contraction, or any type of float.

In that particular case it may have exerted too much force on the threaded portion of the hat causing the hardware to become loose and back out or completely shear off.
(completely speculative...it very well may have been something as simple as forgetting to use loctite)

I have also personally seen many similar cases from other manufacturers using "spring washers". In these failures, the bond between the connecting hardware (Allen bolt and bushing) was able to withstand the force from expansion, but ultimately the force was too great causing the aluminum hat to take the abuse and eventually crack.