Suspension questions. Some guys swear by the stasis setups but
08-09-2005, 10:03 PM
#13
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Hmm, well, I've driven Eric's car
and even though he has 800/900? (I forget the actual rates)it felt more compliant than my 700/800 TS's. That said, I did'nt really think the difference was that dramatic from my car at the time.
In its defense, his car has 100K on it I think and his adjustable upper links were knocking around a lot so that might have colored my impression! My car had 25K on it and stock upper links at the time. I only drove his car for a short time at a GTG and obviously no track time so my empirical evaluation is quite limited. It sure did not ride like a stock S4 though. Then again neither does mine...even with 550/650's.
In its defense, his car has 100K on it I think and his adjustable upper links were knocking around a lot so that might have colored my impression! My car had 25K on it and stock upper links at the time. I only drove his car for a short time at a GTG and obviously no track time so my empirical evaluation is quite limited. It sure did not ride like a stock S4 though. Then again neither does mine...even with 550/650's.
08-10-2005, 05:15 AM
#14
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Remember the AW curse - there is always going to be a flavor of the month around here.
It doesn't necessarily mean that the product is worth the asking price or that it is better than another product. Some people enjoy being the first to have something, and because they spend a great deal of money on it, are too prideful to mention any flaws. Thus, the new (expensive) product is hyped as being the Holy Grail of mods, and everyone rushes to buy it. Only later do the flaws become exposed, when a true objective decision on whether to purchase may be made.
Long story short: stick with time-tested mods regardless of what people are hyping this week. If it's any good, it'll be around next year and at least you'll know the downside before purchasing.
Long story short: stick with time-tested mods regardless of what people are hyping this week. If it's any good, it'll be around next year and at least you'll know the downside before purchasing.
08-10-2005, 05:52 AM
#15
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Way back when, before Stasis sold Ohlins...
I had Penske shocks on my avant. A couple months later I revised the front upper mounts to use a universal shock mount. All of this took place before the Stasis Motorsports hit the market in late, late '03/early '04.
08-10-2005, 07:35 AM
#16
this could venture on religious/political, but both PENSKE and OHLINS are great dampers...
...but getting specific to Tomasz's Penske offerings and Stasis' Ohlins offerings, I'll have to say this much:
If you exclude the external canister adjuster, the OHLINS LMJ series damper has a better single adjuster then the PENSKE 7500 series.
As far as I know, you can't setup a PENSKE 7500 to adjust both compression and rebound with the main shaft adjuster. On the OHLINS LMJ, you can.
As for pistons, I like what I see with the VDP PENSKE piston, it looks pretty cool and if you played around with it, could get a really unique setup. That being said, the kit Tomasz offers runs digressive piston, so that's neither here nor there (you could change pistons in any of these kits of course).
As far as I know, the external canisters are on the same principle, so I'd call them a wash either way.
I'd say for install the rear OHLINS didn't require any modification, but the original PENSKE's did. Though I hear now that the current PENSKE's don't require modification to the rear housing, so that makes that a wash. But would be worth getting verification on.
Lastly, the adjsuters. Both kits mount inverted, good for unsprung weight, and puts the adjuster down by the lower control arm (front and rear). I haven't adjusted the PENSKE, but from the pics I've seen of Tomasz's kit, it ends up below the clevis between the clevis and lower control arm. It looks more difficult to adjust the PENSKE's with the wheels on then it does the OHLINS with the large thumbwheel setup. This may have changed with the PENSKE's, or may be an option.
One thing I know for sure is that this graph from Tomasz is not correct:
<img src="http://www.startupracing.com/images/Suspension/STaSISComparison.gif">
He has a "-" for the OHLINS under nitrogen filled, which I guess means Not Availabe? The OHLINS are most definitely nitrogen gas filled front and rear.
He has a "-" for the OHLINS under complete mounting kit/hardware. I know the OHLINS come with everything (at least they used to) you need to install them properly, including brackets for the canisters and hardware to mount the brackets.
He has a "-" for the Eibach helper springs. If you want Eibach's over Hyperco's, all you have to do is ask. If you want helper springs, you can have that to with the OHLINS. But the key is, you don't have to pay for them if you don't want to.
He has a " " for the Completely Hand Built. I can attest that in fact OHLINS does build their dampers by hand, there is no magical "damper machine" that spits out completed dampers. They do have a really nice oiling machine that bleeds the dampers without risk of user error.
He has a "?" for Owner Serviceable. If you have the tools and the know-how, anyone can service an OHLINS or PENSKE damper. Of course, to do it right, you need a dyno so you know you didn't screw it up. And since I'm sure most people here don't own a shock dyno, probably easier to just take it to a shop that does to service the damper. Since a damper 'service' should be new oil and seals, and inspect/clean all shims and the piston (replace as needed). Not stuff most people have lying around.
So if I made a graph similar to Tomasz, they would all be either "S" or "O".
If you exclude the external canister adjuster, the OHLINS LMJ series damper has a better single adjuster then the PENSKE 7500 series.
As far as I know, you can't setup a PENSKE 7500 to adjust both compression and rebound with the main shaft adjuster. On the OHLINS LMJ, you can.
As for pistons, I like what I see with the VDP PENSKE piston, it looks pretty cool and if you played around with it, could get a really unique setup. That being said, the kit Tomasz offers runs digressive piston, so that's neither here nor there (you could change pistons in any of these kits of course).
As far as I know, the external canisters are on the same principle, so I'd call them a wash either way.
I'd say for install the rear OHLINS didn't require any modification, but the original PENSKE's did. Though I hear now that the current PENSKE's don't require modification to the rear housing, so that makes that a wash. But would be worth getting verification on.
Lastly, the adjsuters. Both kits mount inverted, good for unsprung weight, and puts the adjuster down by the lower control arm (front and rear). I haven't adjusted the PENSKE, but from the pics I've seen of Tomasz's kit, it ends up below the clevis between the clevis and lower control arm. It looks more difficult to adjust the PENSKE's with the wheels on then it does the OHLINS with the large thumbwheel setup. This may have changed with the PENSKE's, or may be an option.
One thing I know for sure is that this graph from Tomasz is not correct:
<img src="http://www.startupracing.com/images/Suspension/STaSISComparison.gif">
He has a "-" for the OHLINS under nitrogen filled, which I guess means Not Availabe? The OHLINS are most definitely nitrogen gas filled front and rear.
He has a "-" for the OHLINS under complete mounting kit/hardware. I know the OHLINS come with everything (at least they used to) you need to install them properly, including brackets for the canisters and hardware to mount the brackets.
He has a "-" for the Eibach helper springs. If you want Eibach's over Hyperco's, all you have to do is ask. If you want helper springs, you can have that to with the OHLINS. But the key is, you don't have to pay for them if you don't want to.
He has a " " for the Completely Hand Built. I can attest that in fact OHLINS does build their dampers by hand, there is no magical "damper machine" that spits out completed dampers. They do have a really nice oiling machine that bleeds the dampers without risk of user error.
He has a "?" for Owner Serviceable. If you have the tools and the know-how, anyone can service an OHLINS or PENSKE damper. Of course, to do it right, you need a dyno so you know you didn't screw it up. And since I'm sure most people here don't own a shock dyno, probably easier to just take it to a shop that does to service the damper. Since a damper 'service' should be new oil and seals, and inspect/clean all shims and the piston (replace as needed). Not stuff most people have lying around.
So if I made a graph similar to Tomasz, they would all be either "S" or "O".
08-10-2005, 08:05 AM
#17
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7500's can be both compression and rebound adjustable.
I believe it's better to nail the compression and run a check valve so that the shock is only rebound adjustable. That way you're not compromising the compression forces if you'd like to run more low speed rebound (great for track use). Folks who order the Penske's can have a check valve on either compression or rebound. The VDP valving is pretty badass - it's on Fletcher's car right now and works like a lucky f-ing charm on the track. It is not as plush as the double digressive valving on the street :/
The current kit from Tomasz does not need modification on the rear to be mounted.
The front adjuster on the Penske shocks is in fact a little harder to get to than the Ohlins. I haven't had a problem adjusting mine at the track with the wheel on though.
The current kit from Tomasz does not need modification on the rear to be mounted.
The front adjuster on the Penske shocks is in fact a little harder to get to than the Ohlins. I haven't had a problem adjusting mine at the track with the wheel on though.
08-10-2005, 08:35 AM
#18
ahh, good updates...
...Send me dyno curves of the VDP stuff if you get a chance, I'd like to see where it is ending up.
Oddly enough, like the VDP, the dyno curve of the Eibach setup on my car runs a fair amount of compression at high speeds, which I always thought meant harsh. And although over a sharp bump it'll hurt ya', the benefits far outway the downsides.
Oddly enough, like the VDP, the dyno curve of the Eibach setup on my car runs a fair amount of compression at high speeds, which I always thought meant harsh. And although over a sharp bump it'll hurt ya', the benefits far outway the downsides.
08-10-2005, 10:19 AM
#19
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Few more answers: (and some news)
<center><img src="http://www.startupracing.com/images/Suspension/Competition.jpg"></center><p>Rebound adjustable Penskes are going to start shipping this week, and will be generally available on August 15. Double adjustable Penskes (just like the STaSIS MotorSports) will be available this year. At first all these kits will be only sold directly, and build to order - 2 week wait time.
They have been designed primarilly for track use, we exclusively use spherical mounts, with absolutely no rubber in the system. People running custom control arms will understand the benefits of that solution. Spring rates are customizable, and if you are looking for a streetable track setup 800/1000 would be the rates you want.
I have driven or ridden on these kits; my evaluation:
OEM - very soft, lots of body roll
TrackSports 600/700 - stiff, little body roll, little bouncy, sharp responses
MotorSports 600/700 - soft, little body roll, sharp responses, well damped
Penske 700/850 - medium soft, very little body roll, very sharp responses, well damped
I will say that the effect that spring rates have on Penske and Ohlins is about the same, while the same srping rates feel much stiffer on TrackSports. If you liked 700/800 TrackSports, go 800/1000 with Penskes.
We are also working on a kit designed for occasional track use, that will come well below $2,000. Spring rates will be set at 500/575, ride height will be adjustable. Rebound and compression will be matched (non-adjustable) spring rates. OEM rubber in the suspension will be minimized, but retained in few areas. It is a compromise, but something that many of mostly street drivers want and will REALLY like.
We are also working on a second spring option... even lighter than Eibach, but not widely available.
I will be also updating the FAQ on the StartupRacing web site, if you opt for Penskes you can either have them build to prooven specs, or to ANY specs you want. As Patrick mentioned, Eric is running VDP valving, speed dependent, digressive, linear, progressive are also available, and can differ between compression and rebound. Spring rates are suggested on the order form, but again, if one prefers 700/825 instead of 700/850 - yeah we can do that! For couple hundred bucks you can purchase kits that would allow you to rebuild the shocks in your garage. (Think lemmiwinks adjustments.) I have no doubt that this is the best suspension for a racer that understands suspensions, and wants the flexibility to modify them. Keep in mind that every Penske shock is manually built to your order, and dyno tested before it is shipped.
Please ask any questions you have. Patrick and I would be happy to answer them.<ul><li><a href="http://www.startupracing.com/B5ProductsSuspension.htm">Link</a></li></ul>
They have been designed primarilly for track use, we exclusively use spherical mounts, with absolutely no rubber in the system. People running custom control arms will understand the benefits of that solution. Spring rates are customizable, and if you are looking for a streetable track setup 800/1000 would be the rates you want.
I have driven or ridden on these kits; my evaluation:
OEM - very soft, lots of body roll
TrackSports 600/700 - stiff, little body roll, little bouncy, sharp responses
MotorSports 600/700 - soft, little body roll, sharp responses, well damped
Penske 700/850 - medium soft, very little body roll, very sharp responses, well damped
I will say that the effect that spring rates have on Penske and Ohlins is about the same, while the same srping rates feel much stiffer on TrackSports. If you liked 700/800 TrackSports, go 800/1000 with Penskes.
We are also working on a kit designed for occasional track use, that will come well below $2,000. Spring rates will be set at 500/575, ride height will be adjustable. Rebound and compression will be matched (non-adjustable) spring rates. OEM rubber in the suspension will be minimized, but retained in few areas. It is a compromise, but something that many of mostly street drivers want and will REALLY like.
We are also working on a second spring option... even lighter than Eibach, but not widely available.
I will be also updating the FAQ on the StartupRacing web site, if you opt for Penskes you can either have them build to prooven specs, or to ANY specs you want. As Patrick mentioned, Eric is running VDP valving, speed dependent, digressive, linear, progressive are also available, and can differ between compression and rebound. Spring rates are suggested on the order form, but again, if one prefers 700/825 instead of 700/850 - yeah we can do that! For couple hundred bucks you can purchase kits that would allow you to rebuild the shocks in your garage. (Think lemmiwinks adjustments.) I have no doubt that this is the best suspension for a racer that understands suspensions, and wants the flexibility to modify them. Keep in mind that every Penske shock is manually built to your order, and dyno tested before it is shipped.
Please ask any questions you have. Patrick and I would be happy to answer them.<ul><li><a href="http://www.startupracing.com/B5ProductsSuspension.htm">Link</a></li></ul>
08-10-2005, 10:40 AM
#20
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Ryan, thanks for the feedback. I will make the changes to the chart today.
Front rebound adjustment will require the wheel to be off. And as Patrick said, we can adjust Compression and rebound at the same time, but if we wanted to do that, we would just sell the PSS9's... ;-).
Again, I really appreciate your feedback!
Again, I really appreciate your feedback!