Car problems/spacer issues have been bugging me....Did a little research.
05-11-2002, 05:31 AM
#11
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Very excellent work, Den! What you found disturbs me deeply.
I agree with your analysis. IMO, keep these things off your car!
The "bad" set appears to be a poor knock-off, or at best some very poor machining. If H & R has more than one supplier, which is not unusual, both/all should be making the parts to the same specifications. My experience/opinion is that your "bad" set didn't pass thru H&R, or if it did, not much incoming inspection for quality was done.
Someone at some level knows what the story is, but if there is a rat in the woodpile, you probably won't find out.
Personally, I'd go directly to H&R with this. If these are inferior knock-offs, H&R's reputation and liability is on the line. If they want them, (and if it were my company I'd send an overnite service to pick them up), you might only send one half of the bad spacers back. (I'm not sure how many you have). Keep one, at least. If you give them all the "bad" ones, they might get "lost".
There are levels of distribution between H&R and the consumer. In this case, it can't be many, but, IMO, someone in the middle may be the culprit. When it comes to appearance items, or fru-fru, greed doesn't kill people, but on stuff like wheel spacers, which, IMO, are a shaky at best proposition, inferior merchandise can be deadly.
I would be happy to measure and analyze the material, etc. of a good and bad one, if you wish.
We have the facilities, or the access to them. e-mail me with questions or concerns.
The "bad" set appears to be a poor knock-off, or at best some very poor machining. If H & R has more than one supplier, which is not unusual, both/all should be making the parts to the same specifications. My experience/opinion is that your "bad" set didn't pass thru H&R, or if it did, not much incoming inspection for quality was done.
Someone at some level knows what the story is, but if there is a rat in the woodpile, you probably won't find out.
Personally, I'd go directly to H&R with this. If these are inferior knock-offs, H&R's reputation and liability is on the line. If they want them, (and if it were my company I'd send an overnite service to pick them up), you might only send one half of the bad spacers back. (I'm not sure how many you have). Keep one, at least. If you give them all the "bad" ones, they might get "lost".
There are levels of distribution between H&R and the consumer. In this case, it can't be many, but, IMO, someone in the middle may be the culprit. When it comes to appearance items, or fru-fru, greed doesn't kill people, but on stuff like wheel spacers, which, IMO, are a shaky at best proposition, inferior merchandise can be deadly.
I would be happy to measure and analyze the material, etc. of a good and bad one, if you wish.
We have the facilities, or the access to them. e-mail me with questions or concerns.
05-11-2002, 05:50 AM
#12
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Thanks Jeff Bipes!! Wait, you're not Jeff Bipes you only play him on the internet. :)
I think they care close enough to be one older mfg. run and one newer or different sourced. Not a Russian imitation. That's as far as I am will ing to go since otherwise would require technical ability I don't have. I do understand manufacturing processes and differences in QC!
05-11-2002, 06:15 AM
#13
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As you develop an understanding some of the geometry of steering...
...<font color="003366"> (steer points, king pin inclination, non-Ackerman effects, <i>et al</i>), the idea of spacers on the front wheels gets downright <i>scary.</i> Offsets are revised asymmetrically when wheel widths increase on vehicles with offset steer points specifically to avoid moving the tire contact patch centerline from the steer point.
Anybody with front wheels spacers know what "nibble" is?
And this isn't even getting into the potential wheel bearing issues.</font>
Anybody with front wheels spacers know what "nibble" is?
And this isn't even getting into the potential wheel bearing issues.</font>
05-11-2002, 06:32 AM
#14
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...still wrangling with spacer issue?
...I doubt the "bad" set is a "knock-off"...although its not unheard of, there's just not that much profit to be made of a simple little part like that( and low quantity)...what is more likely is that they are from different batches or machining runs, and they just got the dimensioning on the conical section wrong (do I understand correctly, that the fronts wobbled on the wheels also?...if they did in the least, they have a dimensional issue also (and are by definition BAD), the interface to the wheel should be nothing less than PERFECT, PERIOD). Also, since this is not an often used part, it could be that you got some which were machined essentially just for you, and never verified (also pretty dissapointing).
To the poster who cited torqueing as a contributor: This is important certainly, but a precision fit is necessary FIRST, and this was not the case. Torqueing, if they are not right, is NOT going to make them fit! In Denny's case, torqueing distorted the cone slightly - which allowed everything to be bolted together since the fit was close to begin with (causing the problem to be subtle), but this is what caused the wobble.
Bottom line is: No fit due to incorrect dimensioning...if they (whoever) can't supply the correct ones, change the hats in the front and loose the spacers altogether! That's my advice!
Cheers
To the poster who cited torqueing as a contributor: This is important certainly, but a precision fit is necessary FIRST, and this was not the case. Torqueing, if they are not right, is NOT going to make them fit! In Denny's case, torqueing distorted the cone slightly - which allowed everything to be bolted together since the fit was close to begin with (causing the problem to be subtle), but this is what caused the wobble.
Bottom line is: No fit due to incorrect dimensioning...if they (whoever) can't supply the correct ones, change the hats in the front and loose the spacers altogether! That's my advice!
Cheers
05-11-2002, 06:39 AM
#16
Have to leave earrly Monday morning, so I'm going to delve
into this when I'm back on May 20. If anything, it's an interesting exercise. At the very least, people should check their spacers to make sure they are all the same and then stack on top of each other in every permutation.
05-11-2002, 06:40 AM
#17
Be interesting to see what yours look like, Dick. I may be totally off here, but
at least it's information for people and they will look very, very carefully at these puppies before installing.
05-11-2002, 06:41 AM
#18
Could be part of it Kevin, but don't think all....the bad set was definitely
not machined properly around the base of the cone...just a mm or so off which doesn't allow it to lay flat in the wheel...then add need to retorque, a long drive etc.
05-11-2002, 06:43 AM
#19
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Finally, someone who feels as I do! You are very correct, Sir.
But I think you are fighting an uphill battle.
Don't you just love increasing the scrub radius on a FWD car, then increasing the power?
Don't you just love increasing the scrub radius on a FWD car, then increasing the power?
