Need some experts opinion on rear sway...TIA
02-11-2004, 07:38 AM
#1
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Need some experts opinion on rear sway...TIA
Ok, I know everyone is recommending the nuespeed 19 mm rear sway bar. I am trying to decide what I would like to do, and don't know much of anything about how a larger rear sway bar would affect handling. There are several other options for larger sway bars from nuespeed, and other manufacturers. If I go with a larger one, say a 25mm, would this make the rear too twitchy. I guess I am trying to find out what effect it would have on the rest of the suspension. Ultimately my suspension setup will be thus: s-line springs, replacing s-line shocks/struts after 5-10k with bilstein sport or koni. Any insight would be very appreciated!
02-11-2004, 07:46 AM
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I ve got S-Line w/19mm and love it>>>
I only have 5K on the car..I REALLY like the way it handles. Very neutral and a BIG improvement over stock... I think for my (street) application 19mm is right on...I would like a hair more rebound in the rear shocks so... yes I will go to Koni or Bil. rears very soon...then see how the front behaves..I think it will be tough to match the front S-line..but I"ll try. May get lucky. May look into Euro S-line rear shocks?
02-11-2004, 08:21 AM
#4
when you see bigger, 25, 28mm, etc. it's for fwd cars
you can get a bigger front for ours but the car doesn't need it. stock rear is 15mm, so you're going up about 30% which isn't a ton. it is enough to create a very easy car to coax around. H&R will release a 22mm but it may turn out to be too much for the street. it may also need subframe re-enforcement
02-11-2004, 08:54 AM
#5
Eighth Member of AudiWorld. God-like, glorious and all-knowing.
Use extreme caution when monkeying w/the sway bars...
I've posted this before, but in our zeal to achieve neutral handling, I think that we often go overboard without realizing what we're doing, or properly evaluating our respective limitations as drivers. Most of us simply aren't as good as we think we are, and that includes yours truly.
Often, I believe modders end up with a car that can be prone to snap oversteer (i.e. swapping ends) and that can be a very dangerous thing indeed. Some additional comments follow.
The link below will take you to a post regarding a TT with said sway bar which crashed. Here are some follow up comments from me (aka Brad Willis) and Chris Lloyd (aka Lloyd of the Rings)...
Are we sure this Neuspeed bar isn't TOO thick? After all...
User account number (aid): 8
Posted by Brad Willis on 2001-05-20 11:30:08
In Reply to: Install tips...(and corrected measurements)...
When Audi made the changes from MkI to MkII, they only modified these bars by 1mm. Here, we're talking about about a 5.4mm change, which seems substantial.
Are we sure we aren't overdoing it, i.e. reducing understeer to the point that the car could be potentially dangerous and the odds of the back end coming around increasing dramatically? We all want to improve handling characteristics, but not at the expense of safety.
==================================================
My feeling too. Wes Simpson has the only TT I know with this change and .......
User account number (aid): 134
Posted by Lloyd of the Rings on 2001-05-20 11:50:08
In Reply to: Are we sure this Neuspeed bar isn't TOO thick? After all...
significantly (in my mind) he spun at both SearsPoint and Thunderhill track days. I think this large a diameter bar might induce too much oversteer.
Personally, I find the TT to be fairly neutral in handling; a larger diameter rear anti-roll bar would certainly increase the likelihood of the back stepping out with abrupt off-throttle changes.
==================================================
Re: My feeling too. Wes Simpson has the only TT I know with this change and .......
User account number (aid): 8
Posted by Brad Willis on 2001-05-20 12:08:39
In Reply to: My feeling too. Wes Simpson has the only TT I know with this change and .......
That's my gut feeling. In other words, I think we have to be careful about saying, "Neuspeed makes a 19mm bar, so let's throw it in there and see what happens".
At one point, I was going to swap my MkII rear bar with a MkI rear bar. I still have the feeling that this would have been a nearly ideal setup. But again, we're only talking about a 1mm difference overall. Ultimately I decided against this.
When I owned a MkI TT, I almost swapped ends and lost it once. Fortunately, I was able to counter and recover, but if I had spun, I could have been injured and the car may have been damaged. The MkI TT did not feel like I was beyond the limit until I was actually there.
Since I have been driving my MkII TT, this has not occurred. I'm sure that part of that is due to being a better driver now, and more familiar with the TT's handling characteristics. But I also suspect that the understeer that Audi introduced has indeed made this a safer car.
Again, my gut feeling is that leaving the MkII's front bar as is, but swapping the rear with a MkI (1mm increase) would be a compromise mid-point (if that makes sense) between a MkI and MkII with respect to anti-sway bars. I also have the feeling that a 5.4mm increase in rear diameter is potentially dangerous.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/385481.phtml">Crunch!</a></li></ul>
Often, I believe modders end up with a car that can be prone to snap oversteer (i.e. swapping ends) and that can be a very dangerous thing indeed. Some additional comments follow.
The link below will take you to a post regarding a TT with said sway bar which crashed. Here are some follow up comments from me (aka Brad Willis) and Chris Lloyd (aka Lloyd of the Rings)...
Are we sure this Neuspeed bar isn't TOO thick? After all...
User account number (aid): 8
Posted by Brad Willis on 2001-05-20 11:30:08
In Reply to: Install tips...(and corrected measurements)...
When Audi made the changes from MkI to MkII, they only modified these bars by 1mm. Here, we're talking about about a 5.4mm change, which seems substantial.
Are we sure we aren't overdoing it, i.e. reducing understeer to the point that the car could be potentially dangerous and the odds of the back end coming around increasing dramatically? We all want to improve handling characteristics, but not at the expense of safety.
==================================================
My feeling too. Wes Simpson has the only TT I know with this change and .......
User account number (aid): 134
Posted by Lloyd of the Rings on 2001-05-20 11:50:08
In Reply to: Are we sure this Neuspeed bar isn't TOO thick? After all...
significantly (in my mind) he spun at both SearsPoint and Thunderhill track days. I think this large a diameter bar might induce too much oversteer.
Personally, I find the TT to be fairly neutral in handling; a larger diameter rear anti-roll bar would certainly increase the likelihood of the back stepping out with abrupt off-throttle changes.
==================================================
Re: My feeling too. Wes Simpson has the only TT I know with this change and .......
User account number (aid): 8
Posted by Brad Willis on 2001-05-20 12:08:39
In Reply to: My feeling too. Wes Simpson has the only TT I know with this change and .......
That's my gut feeling. In other words, I think we have to be careful about saying, "Neuspeed makes a 19mm bar, so let's throw it in there and see what happens".
At one point, I was going to swap my MkII rear bar with a MkI rear bar. I still have the feeling that this would have been a nearly ideal setup. But again, we're only talking about a 1mm difference overall. Ultimately I decided against this.
When I owned a MkI TT, I almost swapped ends and lost it once. Fortunately, I was able to counter and recover, but if I had spun, I could have been injured and the car may have been damaged. The MkI TT did not feel like I was beyond the limit until I was actually there.
Since I have been driving my MkII TT, this has not occurred. I'm sure that part of that is due to being a better driver now, and more familiar with the TT's handling characteristics. But I also suspect that the understeer that Audi introduced has indeed made this a safer car.
Again, my gut feeling is that leaving the MkII's front bar as is, but swapping the rear with a MkI (1mm increase) would be a compromise mid-point (if that makes sense) between a MkI and MkII with respect to anti-sway bars. I also have the feeling that a 5.4mm increase in rear diameter is potentially dangerous.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/385481.phtml">Crunch!</a></li></ul>
02-11-2004, 09:06 AM
#6
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I had the PSS9's and the 19mm bar and truly enjoyed that set-up on the track...
it's simply something that you must give a bit of respect to and relearn what the car does and what the feedback is when cornering.
The track is a great place to learn the differences since many corners have large runoff areas (unlike streets with curbs and ditches) for when you screw up.
The track is a great place to learn the differences since many corners have large runoff areas (unlike streets with curbs and ditches) for when you screw up.
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02-11-2004, 01:09 PM
#8
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Yep.
I've taken my car on the track after each change in order to get in tune with the differences...
stock, chip, Wheels (wider, larger), Springs and shocks...I rcently added an exhaust and the rear bar so I will be going on the track again soon to test these out. I am taking easy with the rear bar for the time being - but so far I like it.
stock, chip, Wheels (wider, larger), Springs and shocks...I rcently added an exhaust and the rear bar so I will be going on the track again soon to test these out. I am taking easy with the rear bar for the time being - but so far I like it.
02-11-2004, 01:54 PM
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25mm front, 19mm rear works well with coilovers. Be careful, ...
improperly matched bars can be lethal to handling. While setting up my TR6 with rose jointed, adjustable front / rear I went the full spectrum from SEVERE understeer (literally wanted to go straight in a turn @ 50mph)to doing donuts at will. Bringing the car into the handling "sweet spot" required hours of tweaking...very, very small increments of change.
Be careful if you decide to experiment
Be careful if you decide to experiment
02-11-2004, 07:46 PM
#10
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Excellent advice! I do plan on doing the main...
suspension, and then getting used to that before looking to put a rear bar on. I just want to start understanding the effects asap. thanks for your input. It's very appreciated.