Why I like Haldex over Torsen: Round 2 (Life In The Real World)
08-02-2001, 04:06 PM
#24
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Why I like Torsen over Haldex: Round 2 (Life In The Real World)
I'll keep this short and simple. I got an awd car because it snows. I like to drive in the snow. I like to drive aggressively in the snow. I think that the fixed torsen f/r split is vastly superior in the snow. If I wanted a drivetrain for performance, I would have gotten a rwd car.
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/6295/lotosnow1.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/6295/dpsnow.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/6295/lotosnow1.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/6295/dpsnow.jpg">
08-02-2001, 04:59 PM
#27
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I thoroughly agree that Torsen is better in inclimate weather.
I don't drive the TT in the snow but I do in the rain. Torsen is much smoother. The average A4 / A6 commuter / soccer mom (not meant as an insult to you) would certainly not appreciate the noticable front wheel slip off the line with Haldex in the wet.
The original premise as outlined yesterday, however was for performance driving.
The original premise as outlined yesterday, however was for performance driving.
08-02-2001, 05:08 PM
#28
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why neither system is that great
Got this from the Subaru FAQ. Now lets all go out and enjoy our cars damnit and get off this!
If this is going to replace Quattro, then doesn't that mean the demise of the last production Torsen AWD system? These were nice because they were able to react prior to wheelspin, whereas viscous-coupling and electromechanical systems (to an extent, see below) reacted after wheels
started spinning. The disadvantage was the weight (~80kg) and complexity of the Torsen gears.
Thinking about it, it seems that our Subaru 4EAT system has some real advantages over the Haldex:
* Because the MPT control ("degree of AWD") is integrated with the TCU (transmission control unit), the Subaru system is able to select a map based on throttle position, trans state, etc. -- thus an "active" system that prevents wheelspin by e.g., moving torque to the rear as soon as the accelerator is depressed. The Haldex system, being a driveline component, is inherently "reactive".
* The Haldex diff is located in the rear of the car. Thus, even in "free-running" FWD mode, the engine always has to spin the driveshaft. On the Subaru, everything rear of the trans gets engine power only when rear torque is desired.
* Overall mass distribution in the Subaru is relatively symmetrical; the Haldex is sort of an L-shaped thingy.
There are some other interesting features of the Haldex LSC:
* Total weight 12kg (nice)
* Oil change required at 60,000km (bummer)
* Electrical consumption 10 watts (seems a bit high)
What do you all think about these comparisons? It sounds like Subaru's system again comes out on top, but maybe you all know something I don't...
Add this to the fact BOTH Audi systems don't have a true limited slip diff in the rear accel.
Now compare it to this car that sells for the SAME price range as a A4 and sometimes cheaper than a TT ($25-$35). It's system is much better than both and would blast both cars to smithereens. Keep in mind the Torsen layout is aging plus the Haldex is light and cheap. But here's a real innovative AWD system:
...So the EVO wins the power category and the STi takes the gearshift honours hands down, but how do they behave in the real world? When their engines are whirring away at more than 5,000rpm and wheels are fighting for cornering traction, the VII comes into its own. As reported in Issue 640, the Mitsubishi has some of the world's most advanced hi-tech hardware.
Added to understeer-killing Active Yaw Control (AYC) comes an all-new Active Centre Differential (ACD), which monitors cornering forces and driver input, then distributes power accordingly to maximise turn-in quickness and cornering speed. While the AYC distributes more power to the outer wheels in a high-speed corner to minimise understeer and increase grip, the ACD is monitoring how much of the engine's output should be sent to the front or rear wheels to keep the car cornering at its absolute maximum. Drivers can switch between three modes - tarmac, gravel and snow - using a switch located on the dash.
In tarmac setting, the ACD directs more power to the rear to help the Evo negotiate corners faster, and in snow mode added output is channelled to the front to pull the car through a low traction corner. The feature might sound like a clever gimmick, but from experience we can tell you that the impact it has on the Evo's character is phenomenal. As a result, the VII turns-in faster than any production car.
In fact, the steering is so fast to respond and so precise, it takes some time getting used to. Once mastered it delivers a new dimension in cornering; no road-going saloon we have driven can corner quicker than the EVO VII. And the wider and specially developed 235/45ZR17 Yokohama tyres add to the tremendous grip on offer. Throw the Mitsubishi into a corner at insane speeds and wait for all that technology to engage. In any other car, you would expect to fight every inch of the way to retrieve such an over-ambitious cornering challenge. Not so in the VII; the AYC and ACD, combined with sport ABS, fatter rubber and an increase in body rigidity, mean that you can corner at previously unimaginable speeds.
If this is going to replace Quattro, then doesn't that mean the demise of the last production Torsen AWD system? These were nice because they were able to react prior to wheelspin, whereas viscous-coupling and electromechanical systems (to an extent, see below) reacted after wheels
started spinning. The disadvantage was the weight (~80kg) and complexity of the Torsen gears.
Thinking about it, it seems that our Subaru 4EAT system has some real advantages over the Haldex:
* Because the MPT control ("degree of AWD") is integrated with the TCU (transmission control unit), the Subaru system is able to select a map based on throttle position, trans state, etc. -- thus an "active" system that prevents wheelspin by e.g., moving torque to the rear as soon as the accelerator is depressed. The Haldex system, being a driveline component, is inherently "reactive".
* The Haldex diff is located in the rear of the car. Thus, even in "free-running" FWD mode, the engine always has to spin the driveshaft. On the Subaru, everything rear of the trans gets engine power only when rear torque is desired.
* Overall mass distribution in the Subaru is relatively symmetrical; the Haldex is sort of an L-shaped thingy.
There are some other interesting features of the Haldex LSC:
* Total weight 12kg (nice)
* Oil change required at 60,000km (bummer)
* Electrical consumption 10 watts (seems a bit high)
What do you all think about these comparisons? It sounds like Subaru's system again comes out on top, but maybe you all know something I don't...
Add this to the fact BOTH Audi systems don't have a true limited slip diff in the rear accel.
Now compare it to this car that sells for the SAME price range as a A4 and sometimes cheaper than a TT ($25-$35). It's system is much better than both and would blast both cars to smithereens. Keep in mind the Torsen layout is aging plus the Haldex is light and cheap. But here's a real innovative AWD system:
...So the EVO wins the power category and the STi takes the gearshift honours hands down, but how do they behave in the real world? When their engines are whirring away at more than 5,000rpm and wheels are fighting for cornering traction, the VII comes into its own. As reported in Issue 640, the Mitsubishi has some of the world's most advanced hi-tech hardware.
Added to understeer-killing Active Yaw Control (AYC) comes an all-new Active Centre Differential (ACD), which monitors cornering forces and driver input, then distributes power accordingly to maximise turn-in quickness and cornering speed. While the AYC distributes more power to the outer wheels in a high-speed corner to minimise understeer and increase grip, the ACD is monitoring how much of the engine's output should be sent to the front or rear wheels to keep the car cornering at its absolute maximum. Drivers can switch between three modes - tarmac, gravel and snow - using a switch located on the dash.
In tarmac setting, the ACD directs more power to the rear to help the Evo negotiate corners faster, and in snow mode added output is channelled to the front to pull the car through a low traction corner. The feature might sound like a clever gimmick, but from experience we can tell you that the impact it has on the Evo's character is phenomenal. As a result, the VII turns-in faster than any production car.
In fact, the steering is so fast to respond and so precise, it takes some time getting used to. Once mastered it delivers a new dimension in cornering; no road-going saloon we have driven can corner quicker than the EVO VII. And the wider and specially developed 235/45ZR17 Yokohama tyres add to the tremendous grip on offer. Throw the Mitsubishi into a corner at insane speeds and wait for all that technology to engage. In any other car, you would expect to fight every inch of the way to retrieve such an over-ambitious cornering challenge. Not so in the VII; the AYC and ACD, combined with sport ABS, fatter rubber and an increase in body rigidity, mean that you can corner at previously unimaginable speeds.
08-02-2001, 06:41 PM
#30
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isn't the suby system you speak of only on automatics?
I think the manual gearbox based scooby awd system is more similar to torsen than it is haldex.
I was looking at pictures of an Evo's dash, and when I saw that adjustable center diff switch, I was in love. We need that Mitsu over heah!
I was looking at pictures of an Evo's dash, and when I saw that adjustable center diff switch, I was in love. We need that Mitsu over heah!